Data Aquisition - What do you use?

dominojd said:

Yeah I think Greg or Jeremy Lucas, should have an online Data Aq. for dummies 101. An online class once a week over the winter would be nice.

But we all know Greg is a douche so he would never do it, Jeremy?

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Currently I do web conferencing to help the long distance customers so we can share the same screen and look at their data together (I've even done it on a Friday night to help them look at Lime Rock qualifying data for the race the next day) but perhaps recording some of those sessions might be a good idea since the best way to learn is by seeing examples. I'm not sure how best to do an online class. If someone has ideas how to effectively do that I'm all ears. Greg & I have tossed around the idea of writing some articles as well, however you'd be surprised how much time it can take to write a several page article that is well illustrated and explained.

To answer the original posters question,IMHO software is what makes one product better than another. In the budget category, that's what makes the DL1 hard to beat. I've used all the club level systems and keep coming back to the DL1 as the recommendation for 95% of people. If you have more detailed questions feel free to email or call me and I can run down some of my experiences with you.

dominojd said:

Yeah I think Greg or Jeremy Lucas, should have an online Data Aq. for dummies 101. An online class once a week over the winter would be nice.

But we all know Greg is a douche so he would never do it, Jeremy?

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Jesus Joe, you just did it to me again!
I don't expect that outside of the Sandbox you know!
*wipes lunch off the keyboard*


ETA: What about the Traqmate? How does it compare to the DL-1?
We would like something user friendly, decent price, and easy to read info. Don't feel like having to study a new program for hours. And don't want to buy something that I can't figure out how to use.

jlucas said:

Currently I do web conferencing to help the long distance customers so we can share the same screen and look at their data together (I've even done it on a Friday night to help them look at Lime Rock qualifying data for the race the next day) but perhaps recording some of those sessions might be a good idea since the best way to learn is by seeing examples. I'm not sure how best to do an online class. If someone has ideas how to effectively do that I'm all ears. Greg & I have tossed around the idea of writing some articles as well, however you'd be surprised how much time it can take to write a several page article that is well illustrated and explained.

To answer the original posters question,IMHO software is what makes one product better than another. In the budget category, that's what makes the DL1 hard to beat. I've used all the club level systems and keep coming back to the DL1 as the recommendation for 95% of people. If you have more detailed questions feel free to email or call me and I can run down some of my experiences with you.

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How about a live seminar? I'm sure we could gather enough people together to make it worth it ($$$) to come out and do one live????.... Seeing as we can't get our douche bag teamate to do it for us.............

I am sure we could host a seminar for NER folks at the shop. A generic overview for those who have other systems and then an in-depth look at ITS, ITA and SM data for a multitude of tracks here in the NE from a DL-1.

If we get enough people, I will do it.

StephF said:

What about the Traqmate? How does it compare to the DL-1?

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Best thing going for Traqmate is the video integration they have with ChaseCam. Other than that you'll find the software very easy initially but then as you get used to it I think you'll find it's lacking depth. RT has a multi camera solid state recorder coming out next month that pairs up with the DL1.

The DL1 software is not hard, just some of the NE guys have gotten lazy because Greg is always around to do it for them.

However I will say that if your not willing to spend a couple hours learning software, there is no data aquisition system that is right for you. Get a video overlay system with no software analysis component (for example, http://www.racereye.com/) and just watch tapes; however that is limiting as well because you miss out on the best part of the analysis. Not trying to be rude, just honest -- see Jim's comment about his $1800 shift light. Like anything worth doing, you have to put some time into it regardless of the brand you use.

I have "quick start guide" and "dl1 example" documents posted as PDFs on my website. They are from the previous v6 software and I need to remake them for the current v7.

If you want some sample data to look at, just email me. When I first started with data acquisition I tried every system I could get my hands on and have tried others since -- that's how I ended up primarily using/coaching/selling/supporting the DL1. The software is the key to whatever system you buy and there's no reason you shouldn't try it before you buy it.

For events that I'm at I offer a rental (with rental fee applicable to after event purchase) so you can fully try it before you buy it.

Edit: You NE guys should take Andy up on his offer, I would help out with that if I was local. If nothing else, it will give you guys something to do over winter.

jlucas said:

Best thing going for Traqmate is the video integration they have with ChaseCam. Other than that you'll find the software very easy initially but then as you get used to it I think you'll find it's lacking depth. RT has a multi camera solid state recorder coming out next month that pairs up with the DL1.

The DL1 software is not hard, just some of the NE guys have gotten lazy because Greg is always around to do it for them.

However I will say that if your not willing to spend a couple hours learning software, there is no data aquisition system that is right for you. Get a video overlay system with no software analysis component (for example, http://www.racereye.com/) and just watch tapes; however that is limiting as well because you miss out on the best part of the analysis. Not trying to be rude, just honest -- see Jim's comment about his $1800 shift light. Like anything worth doing, you have to put some time into it regardless of the brand you use.

I have "quick start guide" and "dl1 example" documents posted as PDFs on my website. They are from the previous v6 software and I need to remake them for the current v7.

If you want some sample data to look at, just email me. When I first started with data acquisition I tried every system I could get my hands on and have tried others since -- that's how I ended up primarily using/coaching/selling/supporting the DL1. The software is the key to whatever system you buy and there's no reason you shouldn't try it before you buy it.

For events that I'm at I offer a rental (with rental fee applicable to after event purchase) so you can fully try it before you buy it.

Edit: You NE guys should take Andy up on his offer, I would help out with that if I was local. If nothing else, it will give you guys something to do over winter.

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Jeremy,

I don't think it is as much the software which most have problems with, it is how to effectively look at the data and use it.

Me personally can compare some data , but don't really know what is most helpful. Most of the time it just looks like a bunch of squiggly lines on the screen.

Hey I'm a plumber and a racer, very far from a data guy.

Greg is still a douche , but I love em.

I have no problem taking a time to learn a system. I'm actually pretty good at figuring out how to use computer stuff. What I don't want is something that is going to take me all season to figure out, or is so technical that I never get the full benefit from the system.
I don't want an $1,800 shift light. And I don't want to be running to anyone else to do it for me either. Probably because I am a skirt (thank you Rob D for that one.. ) but I think I would probably prefer something that is showing me where on the track I am at when I am gaining or losing time as opposed to a graph, or a bunch of "squiggly lines".
I actually don't care all that much about the video part. It would be cool, but my interest lies in the data; entrance and exit speeds, G forces, braking points, acceleration points, and if available, line on the racetrack.
Can the DL1 be set up to show you that easily? Or would I need a programming degree? And what about the installation? Is it a 'drop and go' system with minimal wiring?

dominojd said:

Jeremy,

I don't think it is as much the software which most have problems with, it is how to effectively look at the data and use it.

Me personally can compare some data , but don't really know what is most helpful. Most of the time it just looks like a bunch of squiggly lines on the screen.

Hey I'm a plumber and a racer, very far from a data guy.

Greg is still a douche , but I love em.

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Joe is a plumber and a something else... For sure not a data guy. It's just a good thing that he brings Yuengling to the track.

I've been researching these things for years, and this thread got me going again. I looked in detail at AIM, Race pack and Race technologies. Seems there are still major pros and cons to each, so your particular mission requirements matter ALOT. For me, I want Digital video overlay, and would like a dash too (but don't have to have one) - all in one box if I could get it, but nobody does. Aim DaVid is the best video, but its analog and combined with so-so data logger and no availability of a "dummy" type dash display to show the driver (aim seems to be behind the times on memory and channels - you can tell its the oldest design). Race Technologies is coming out with a new digital video module, but you have to have that + their data logger + a separate display to get it all-Ick. Racepack seems to have the best built in dash/datalogger, but its sensors are expensive, and they have no integrated video option at all. Looks like nobody is there yet. Some years ago, I built my own analog video overlay datalogger (data only stored right in the video), and put the circuit right inside a recorder, but didn't know how to do digital video then (chips have come a long way since then though). Hmm.. Maybe time to update my own system

I get how to use the software, but like Joe said don't comprehend what to do with the data. Jeremy L., I know you showed me some stuff before but that was waaay over my head. At the same point I understand that wasn't our goal for that day. Articles and books on this subject are okay, but the way I personally would learn this stuff is more hands on and looking at the real system. I bought one of the new data acq books that discusses the Dl1 system but again, over my head. I think if someone were to conduct a few online classes using something like GoToMeeting or other similar on line meeting software, there would be interest. Again, keep it simple and only include the most basic inputs.

Most DAS software is well laid out and quite user friendly. As most folks are mentioning it's what to do with the data once you have it. For that you are going to have to read up, find a mentor, take a class, and/or hire a DAG.

I took Claude Rouelle's seminar @ 6 years ago and it is a very good primer. I recommend a hands on seminar for anyone wanting to use DAS. Additionally the best book on the subject matter, that I've read, is Jorge Segers new book (see my previous post for details). This book tells you the sensors you need, math channels to program, and how to review the "squiggly lines." He does so using various cars, various DAS, and puts it quite plainly. I can't say enough about this book and the knowledge you'll gain from it.

Data analysis is on the technical side of the sport. With that you will need to hit the books (i.e. back to school for most). You don't have to be an engineer to correctly utilize the data, but you have to think like one.

Went back and looked - duh, the stuff is already on my website, just never linked it in:
http://vaughanscott.com/AIM/Data_Acq.htm

There's a Powerpoint presentation there, plus you'll want the notes page to go with each slide.

Some of the info about systems is a couple of years old now, but all the analysis stuff still applies!

We do session to session comparisions, 2, 3 and 4 driver overlays all the time. We go over every corner, braking points, effectiveness, mid corner speeds, corner exit, resulting straight speeds etc.

Its all in there and easy to see once you have seen it a couple times.

Contact me if you want to be part of a seminar at our shop.

StephF said:

I think I would probably prefer something that is showing me where on the track I am at when I am gaining or losing time as opposed to a graph, or a bunch of "squiggly lines".

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Here's a DL1 example showing a graphical indication of where time is being lost or gained for a single lap. + is slower (red) , - is faster (blue), green is on pace. The comparison is done against "best theoretical" baseline which is the compilation of all your fastest sectors strung together. As your more consistent, the best theoretical converges on what is actually achievable. (linked so you can see them larger and not clog up the forum):
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii297/jplucas/time-slip-shaded.jpg
So that's one way to look at it. If you look at that same lap compared to another in a more traditional view, you can see multiple channels at the same time, and quantify some of the difference why one lap is faster than another. Any of the light blue text, arrows, boxes are my manual markup on top of the screen grab to point things out to you. Keep in mind this is just 1 option of many available in the software.
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii297/jplucas/time-slip-full.jpg
The color map trace (image 1) and the bottom graph in image 2 both are showing you the "time slip %" variable which is something unique to the DL1 among it's entry level competitors.

StephF said:

I actually don't care all that much about the video part. It would be cool, but my interest lies in the data; entrance and exit speeds, G forces, braking points, acceleration points, and if available, line on the racetrack.

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I could give you a graphical example of each of these in just about any of the software packages (ie. brands). The DL1 advantage here is the speed of jumping from one comparison to the next and the multitude of options to view your data. You can view the information on graphs (aka squiggly lines), in a table, in a colored map trace, or in a animated replay of your session. Different people learn differently so one method might appeal to you, another for me.

StephF said:

Can the DL1 be set up to show you that easily? Or would I need a programming degree? And what about the installation? Is it a 'drop and go' system with minimal wiring?

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Yup, that's the beauty of the GPS based systems (any of them) is the amount of information that can be recorded from a 5 min install - GPS position, GPS speed, lateral accel (side to side), longitudinal accel (brak ing/accel). Even just that is information overload already for most people not used to looking at data acquisition. Tapping into analog inputs (TPS, brake, RPM, etc..) will take a little more time and on some systems this starts to drive up the cost but the DL1 has 8 analog/4 frequency/& RPM inputs built in. These extra inputs help you get deeper into the analysis. Some inputs like steering angle are you going to cost you extra no matter what system you go with.

rsportvolvo said:

Jorge Segers new book (see my previous post for details). This book tells you the sensors you need, math channels to program, and how to review the "squiggly lines." He does so using various cars, various DAS, and puts it quite plainly. I can't say enough about this book and the knowledge you'll gain from it.

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I'll second the Segers' book. Greg has my copy right now.

Spinnetti said:

pros and cons to each, so your particular mission requirements matter ALOT

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Very true but most newbies don't know or understand the differences between some of the choices or can understand why one software is better than another. Hence why these types of discussions are very enlightening for those who are starting to look/investigate.

As far as add-ons, one of the best for the DL1 is adding a DASH3lite. Adding a DASH3lite (or buying as a bundle with a DL1 initially) will give you predictive lap time feedback as you circulate the track and cross your virtual GPS lap beacons; GPS speed, programmable shift lights, and many other features are part of it as well. It's a powerful tool to help you while on track, and help you capitalize on what you reviewed on the PC back in the paddock. A DASH3full adds sensor monitoring/display capability as well as programmable alarms for those sensors so you concentrate on the important stuff, you can even start off with a "lite" and upgrade it later to a "full".

Hopefully these visual examples and more specific comments help you in your search. It's hard to know which presentation of the information works for each of you, so if someone wants to see if a different way just let me know. This is why it's important that your software package has options. Also as your data analysis skill grows, what you want to see and how you want to see it will grow/change. You want something that will grow with you.

Was just reflecting....

Several mentioned what do you do once you have the data?

I took a two day driving course at Mid-Ohio, and we did every corner over, and over, and over again, with turn in points, track out points etc.. Once you know what the correct line and points by corner are, all you need to do is look at Planned vs. Actual. If you hit all your marks, you just need to focus on improving segment times (which you can compare from each lap), and if not, now you know which areas to focus on. So..... my advice would be to take instruction from pros if available at the tracks you wish to run on, and you will then know what to do with the data....

OK, 3 cars, 2 drivers, frequently we'll be on track together, so 1 system wouldn't work.
But, if we're in different groups, what would be he best system to quickly remove from one car and put in another?

StephF said:

I have no problem taking a time to learn a system. I'm actually pretty good at figuring out how to use computer stuff. What I don't want is something that is going to take me all season to figure out, or is so technical that I never get the full benefit from the system.
I don't want an $1,800 shift light. And I don't want to be running to anyone else to do it for me either. Probably because I am a skirt (thank you Rob D for that one.. ) but I think I would probably prefer something that is showing me where on the track I am at when I am gaining or losing time as opposed to a graph, or a bunch of "squiggly lines".
I actually don't care all that much about the video part. It would be cool, but my interest lies in the data; entrance and exit speeds, G forces, braking points, acceleration points, and if available, line on the racetrack.
Can the DL1 be set up to show you that easily? Or would I need a programming degree? And what about the installation? Is it a 'drop and go' system with minimal wiring?

Click to expand...

Steph,

Although some of us talk about the complexity of the DL-1, even my basic knowledge has helped me a great deal. With an hour or two of help from anyone (even Joe), you would be on your way.

It has been by far the best money I have spent on going fast. And again, I think it is key to have other data to compare to, not just your own.

It will help you and you will be able to figure it out. (and I'm sure you're much smarter than a plumber......... )

JLawton said:

.

(and I'm sure you're much smarter than a plumber......... )

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for sure a lot better lookin', but somedays you just need somebody that can really crank your pipe!

Ed, any of the GPS based systems can be easily moved between cars. To facilitate that just get an extra set of connectors & GPS antenna for each car and just move the "brain" unit. You can have a similar flat mounting spot in each car that you can put velcro on, if needed, you can use a secondary strap (think I/O Port camera strap or similar). If your going to use a display, I would also recommend 1 per car - not required but it would simplify things greatly for moving.
So that condition alone won't help you pick a unit, however the speed at which you can sift through large amounts of data and skip from one comparison to the next I don't think can be beat with the DL1. I can tell you from working last year in GrandAm with 6 drivers & 3 cars at once that my opinion on this has been further reinforced by the driver's comments and the comparisons they made to other systems that data has been presented to them in the past.

This has been a very interesting thread. The info at Jeremy's site was great to get an understanding of the DL-1 from a potential buyer.

I am looking seriously at a DAS this season (don't tell my wife... lol). My Hot Lap timer is great to tell me which lap was fastest... but can't tell me why I was faster. I would really like to know!

If anyone can answer a couple of questions:

1 - Do you have to download the data after each session? (ie does it record over a previous session?)

2 - Do people just use a couple of CF cards for data collection to keep sessions separate?

3 - How long does it take to download the data to a laptop?

4 - Jeremy notes in his information that GPS shift makes it difficult to compare "lines" from one day to another. That I can understand. Does that also include acceleration and braking points?

Thanks!

I am an engineer so I love data... but I also don't want to spend too much time trying to figure out the software, etc.