Pit Fire Incident at VIR????

[Greg Amy]

I do not see why the fire bottle guy has to be dressed any more that a flagger.

Only because the fire bottle/safety gal has a significantly higher probability of having to deal with a liquid-fueled fire; after all, that's their promary role. On the other hand, corner workers rarely find themselves in any fire situation, let alone a gasoline fire.

Personally, if I were "manning" the fuel-safety fire bottle on a fueling pit stop, I'd be significantly more likely to interject myself into a fire situation when clothed in full fire gear, than I would if I were in jeans and cotton sleeves. I suggest anyone involved in the safety and/or fueling situation should have full fire-retardant gear, including eye protection.

For comparison, Koni Challenge requires EVERYONE over the wall, regardless of role, to have fire and eye protection during pit stops (no helmets, yet). And they all have quick-release dry-break fire systems (though a team demonstrated at Miller that that's not always a catch-all situation...) - GA

[Super Swift]

This “incident” was caused when a pit lane Fire Worker forced teams to replace their Fire Bottle Person with a person in full Nomex. Teams explained to the Fire Worker that he was acting contrary to the ECR rules.

He said he would see to it that the rules would be changed by the next race.

We have been racing the ECR series since the inception (1990±) with the same rule in effect and have never seen a problem. I remember a fire in (2000±) at Road Atlanta where the current rule set was implemented perfectly. (I think the car even received the checker)

It seems unfair to compare the Pro series as they have NO minimum pit time and I do not recall their requirement to have a Fire Bottle Person over the wall on ready.

Leave the Rule alone!



Ben Robertson

[Team SSR]

We don't need to refuel for 1 1/2 hour ECR (so we don't). Do the majority of the cars actually have to add fuel, or is it just added during the race for weight reasons?

[JeffYoung]

Yes, we have to refuel the Z to make an hour and a half. Some SMs have to refuel too, 1.5 hours is right at the limit of their endurance.

We don't need to refuel for 1 1/2 hour ECR (so we don't). Do the majority of the cars actually have to add fuel, or is it just added during the race for weight reasons?

[BruceG]

Seems like some folks need to get their facts straight before creating a hornet's nest. Didn't this thread start with a "alleged" pit fire?

[JeffYoung]

It was huge! A fireball that could be seen in Milton! We all died!

[tim240z]

More fuel for the fire (Pun intended )

This thread gave me flashbacks to one of the 12 hour races at Homestead. I was the fueler for Guy Marvin and Greg Ira in their #33 240z. We got the word from Charles Perry (third driver) that the car had almost no brakes and needed to come in for an immediate unscheduled pit stop. As many of you know you’re allowed to fuel the vehicle while wrenching on the opposite side of the car so it was a "perfect" opportunity to do the front brake swap. Well as it turns out the piston had popped out of the caliper spewing very hot brake fluid over an area rich in hot tire rubber and an EXTREMLY hot brake rotor. Needless to say we got flames. Meanwhile I’m holding the jug of gas filling the fuel cell through a giant funnel (not very efficient and can be very messy.) Luckily I was able to halt the fill and back away from the car as the fire was contained and extinguished before reaching fuel vapors.

[Mazmarc63]

This “incident” was caused when a pit lane Fire Worker forced teams to replace their Fire Bottle Person with a person in full Nomex. Teams explained to the Fire Worker that he was acting contrary to the ECR rules.

He said he would see to it that the rules would be changed by the next race.

We have been racing the ECR series since the inception (1990±) with the same rule in effect and have never seen a problem. I remember a fire in (2000±) at Road Atlanta where the current rule set was implemented perfectly. (I think the car even received the checker)

It seems unfair to compare the Pro series as they have NO minimum pit time and I do not recall their requirement to have a Fire Bottle Person over the wall on ready.

Leave the Rule alone!



Ben Robertson

Exactly what Ben said. I too have been running the ECR series since 1994. In that time, I have seen a total of one pit stop fire. I happened to be changing tires on that car at Road Atlanta. The fire was quickly extinguished, the pit stop was completed and the car continued.

Nothing is broken. Leave the rule alone.

Hey Greg, I think you mis-spoke here: On the other hand, corner workers rarely find themselves in any fire situation, let alone a gasoline fire.

I have extinguished more fires as a corner worker than I have ever seen during any pit stop or paddock experiment. I've even been on TV doing it.

[Greg Amy]

Hey Greg, I think you mis-spoke here: On the other hand, corner workers rarely find themselves in any fire situation, let alone a gasoline fire.

I have extinguished more fires as a corner worker than I have ever seen during any pit stop or paddock experiment. I've even been on TV doing it.

Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, too...?

No, I didn't mis-speak.

Your fires as a corner worker were - what? - electrical fires, engine oil fires, grass fires, maybe Fiberglas bodywork fires? Never a spewing/spilling fuel fire, right? Ever "seen" a pit lane spewed-gasoline fire, from someone spilling fuel all over the place and it ignites? I have, several times. It ain't pretty. Imagine fuel splashing out of a fuel filler - especially one that's not a dry break so it's not contained - and spilling onto the fire bottle guy who's wearing an absorbent cotton long-sleeve t-shirt. Now imagine the fuel on the car catching fire due to hitting the hot exhaust (that exact scenario happened this past June at the Summit 12). Now imagine a ball of fire expanding outwards to consume the fuel fumes, lighting up any and all gasoline it can find. Including what's on that cotton t-shirt.

The thing here is, you may think the risks of a fire happening in the pits are low; I disagree, I think we've just been lucky. But, significantly more importantly, the damage that a gasoline fire in the pits can/will cause if it does happen are enormous. And if all it takes to minimize that damage is that someone with a fire bottle has to wear a Nomex suit and safety glasses - especially given than a shiiteload of driver suits are about to become available real damn cheap due to the new SFI requirements - I really don't see how this is a show-stopper, or, really, nothing but a no-brainer...

In my opinion, we've been lucky. Let's keep hoping we continue to be so...

[seckerich]

[quote=Greg Amy;275869]Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, too...?


No Greg, he actually worked more Daytona 24 and Rolex races than most people have watched on TV.

[Greg Amy]

No Greg, he actually worked more Daytona 24 and Rolex races than most people have watched on TV.

Ah, OK! didn't know that. That settles it, working corners at the Daytona 24 trumps my pitlane fueling safety concerns.

Greg

(P.S., just curious: what are the pit lane requirements vis-a-vis safety equipment for fuelers and fire bottle personnel during the Daytona 24 Hours/Rolex events...?)

[seckerich]

No Greg, I was just pointing out your mocking comment about his experience was a little off.

We wear full nomex with the entire crew and fueler and fire bottle must have helmets with shield down at all times. No fueling can start until fire bottle holder has 2 feet on the ground.

I would personally not fuel or hold the bottle without my fire gear. Anyone who feels as you do should do the same. If someone likes fire in a T shirt Darwin will take over for us.

[JamesB]

From the Grand-Am rules, applies to rolex and koni.

9-5.8 Pit Equipment –
Uniforms – All crewmembers must wear clean uniforms, at all times during practice,
qualifying and races. Tank tops, short pants and other inappropriate attire will not be
permitted in the hot pit area. Whenever a car is in the pits, crewmembers, industry
representatives and all other individuals over the pit wall must wear a full-fire resistant
suit on their exterior (see fueling regulations). Fuelers and fire bottle men must also wear

gloves, Balaclava and eye protection during fueling.

9-5.11 Each race car pit must have a fully charged 10lb. fire extinguisher present at all times.

[Mazmarc63]

Haa, haa, haa. Haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn in a while. I was just responding to your any fire comment.

You are correct. Most, if not all the fires I have responded to as a worker were gearbox and/or engine oil fire related.

The pit fire during the ECR at RA had some interesting details. It was a pro team with an overhead fuel rig that had a trigger nozzel for a stock filler neck. The tank filled quickly and some spillage occured. A few drips on a hot exhaust and - poof. No panic, it was rapidly extinguished and the car continued.

I would agree that we have probably been lucky that there hasn't been a really bad incident involving a fuel fire. Having said that, in my 0.0% worth of an opinion, I don't believe there is a need for a rule change.

[jmark]

I gotta agree with Greg. I have been the fire bottle guy for some GA Cup/GT races. Full nomex, balaclava, eye protection etc. I would not consider it without protection & if I every stop shooting pics and do it for some of my Z car buddies during an ECR I'll wear my nomex there too. It is cheap insurance and I suspect you would be more apt to fight the fire if fully protected. I think the ECR's have been very lucky.

[callard]

I've been running enduros since 1990 and have seen various sets of pit rules involving refueling. We had a committee writing some standardized rules several years ago with the goal of getting them posted in the GCR. If you believe that this is appropriate, we should start a new thread and work on standardized rules to submit to the CRB and BoD.
Regards,
Chuck Allard

[John Nesbitt]

... Ever "seen" a pit lane spewed-gasoline fire, from someone spilling fuel all over the place and it ignites? I have, several times. It ain't pretty. Imagine fuel splashing out of a fuel filler - especially one that's not a dry break so it's not contained - and spilling onto the fire bottle guy who's wearing an absorbent cotton long-sleeve t-shirt. Now imagine the fuel on the car catching fire due to hitting the hot exhaust (that exact scenario happened this past June at the Summit 12). Now imagine a ball of fire expanding outwards to consume the fuel fumes, lighting up any and all gasoline it can find. Including what's on that cotton t-shirt.

The thing here is, you may think the risks of a fire happening in the pits are low; I disagree, I think we've just been lucky. But, significantly more importantly, the damage that a gasoline fire in the pits can/will cause if it does happen are enormous. And if all it takes to minimize that damage is that someone with a fire bottle has to wear a Nomex suit and safety glasses - especially given than a shiiteload of driver suits are about to become available real damn cheap due to the new SFI requirements - I really don't see how this is a show-stopper, or, really, nothing but a no-brainer...

In my opinion, we've been lucky. Let's keep hoping we continue to be so...

I was a Black Flag steward at the 12Hr, and was standing one foot behind the fire bottle guy for the pit stop to which Greg refers.

There was fuel flying widely before it reached something hot and ignited. Some of the fuel splashed me. If you have not seen one of these things, you would be astonished at the size and violence of the fireball.

Luckily, there were two other manned fire bottles immediately at hand, in addition to the team's fire bottle, and the fire was quickly extinguished.

Greg is right: we have been lucky so far. Greg is also right that anyone over the wall involved in refueling should be fully kitted out.

The other point to emphasize is that this is not pro racing, where dry break systems tend to be the norm, and crews practice beforehand. This is amateur club racing, with a wide spectrum of equipment and skill. We should be aiming to fail safe.

[jjjanos]

Cost of getting a nomex suit + goggles + headgear at a race track full of people who are equipped with a nomex suit? Pretty darn low given that they cannot be using them right then.

Cost of 2nd or 3rd degree burns? Ouch.

I'm thinking that if the people who have dry-break systems and who practice refueling (i.e. far less likely to experience a fire) are required to wear protection, then there's probably a good reason for it...

[NutDriverRighty]

Have to agree with Mr. JJJanos' statement about nomex being available for stops. I firmly believe that the best way to avoid catastrophe is to plan for it and be prepared for it before it happens. With this in mind, I must say that all of the planning, equipment, training, etc. will not prevent pit fires. One of the worst I can remember is the Benneton (sorry for the spelling) F1 team at Hockenheim in (IIRC) 1994 fueling Jos Verstappen's car. This was during the first season that pit stops had come back to F1. There was a jam in the dry break rig and his fueler and the pit went up like a Molotov cocktail. However, IIRC the fueler only got burns on his wrists and ankles.

Just a note of sick humor: When working corners, we refer to anything worn that isn't 100% cotton or some fire resistant/retardant material as "shrink wrap".

Scott Franklin
www.NutDriver.org

[krysdean]

"Seems like some folks need to get their facts straight before creating a hornet's nest. Didn't this thread start with a "alleged" pit fire?"

Seems like some folks need to read the post before spouting off. This thread started as a question because I had received an e-mail from the SEDIV Chief of Emergency Services stating that because of an incident in the pits at VIR he was suggesting the following rules.

1. "two 10 lb or one 20 lb AB or ABC fire bottles to be
supplied by all competitors and available in hot pit"

2. "ALL over the wall personnel during fueling would be
required to wear full fire gear, including balaclava and
helmet"

3. "Speedy Dry in all pits supplied by competitors (ECR rules
allow water OR Speedy dry"

I don't agree with the extra Ab or ABC bottle, they work on gasoline, are OK for electric, and totaly useless on fiberglass, besides if an incident occurs in the pits that requires more than a ten lb bottle, the operating Steward had BETTER have the fire truck on site NOW. Cold Fire is expensive, and SCCA has not approved Cold Fire anyway, so we couldn't use it if we wanted to.

I agree with the "over the wall rule", except I believe the fire bottle person could just wear a balaclava, but the cheaper M helmets could be avaiable for this also and that might make the rule work.

I totally agree with the Speedy Dry rule, water just makes a mess and is marginal at best. And speaking of a mess, have you ever tried to clean up the mess made by a dry chemical fire extenguisher? Check the picture and it will give you some idea about what happens when they are used.

While we are on the subject of fire safety, let me mention that if you use a helmet fresh air system, make certain one of the FIRST things you do if you have a fire is to shut the helmet cooler off, it pumps smoke directly into your helmet and reduces your aware time by at least one half.

If you don't think corner workers deal with fire, check out this picture, I can assure you they do and, thankfully they are very good at it. I was still in the car when this picture was taken.

Krys Dean, ECR Chief Steward, South