Ned Stevens
New member
'83 Rabbit GTI that I run in ITB. Currently has a thermostat. Has always run a bit warm-and sometimes hot. What do you guys suggest? Thanks, Al
Thermostat or restrictor?
- Thread starter Ned Stevens
- Start date
What are your current water temps running mid race? End of race? I run an mk2 golf in IT prep using a stock 190F T stat with 3x3mm holes drilled into it which drops it to a 170Fish temp (cheaper then buying the lower temp models and you can get one from any store.)
What are your oil temps? Do you run an oil cooler? If so give me a run down on the setup.
What are your oil temps? Do you run an oil cooler? If so give me a run down on the setup.
If you remove the thermostat, you will need to block the hose between the head and the waterpump. The stock thermostat closes the bypass as it opens for the main flow. The thermostat is on the suction side of the pump. Any type of restriction on the suction side of the pump will increase the chances of cavitation. Spinning the pump faster than designed will also cause cavitation. Using a radiator from an 85 golf that came with factory AC is a cheap upgrade. Another mistake I see people make is with the fitting on the back of the cylinder head and the resevoir tank. We run the coolant tme sender in the hose fitting. The resevoir should be plumbed into the middle fitting on the waterpump. This insures all coolant flow is out the head into the top of the radiator. Plumbed this way, it should be self bleeding. Ducting between the radiator and the front grill as the factory did does help. If you find the engine runs too cool, you could fabricate a restrictor to fit under the coolant flange on head. We have not found that we need one in the Southeast.
tom_sprecher
Super Moderator
+1
I don't know about VW's but when I did this and changed the oil cooler location on my RX-7 it eliminated any cooling problems I had except now it may run too cool if there is such a thing on a rotary.
Shrouding the radiator makes a huge differnce. I have the stock radiator (83GTI) shrouded on all 4 sides with a slightly lower thermostat and a 1/8" hole drilled in it for bleeding the air out. With the new motor before I put the oil cooler on I had temps at exactly 190 never went over even a mm on the gauge and the oil temps were pretty high I also don't run a fan so you get much better flow through the radiator.
If you get rid of the thermostat you will run significantly cooler.
The best solution, I would believe is to buy lower temp thermostat. They are not that expensive and defiantly will keep the engine in optimal temp range. Instead of too cool when running at full power without the thermostat.
If I remember correctly, there is a 78C thermostat available. The stock is 92C, I think.
My math I did before is retarded and wrong, but gets the approximate thermostat temp. thermostat temp - (Your normal running speed temp - desired temp)= new thermostat
I remember reading a SAE paper on temp vs power. They suggested to run significantly hotter engine to make maximum power. I think the number was 105C or something. Converting a 90C engine into 105C would require recalculating the clearances.
Most likely I am wrong and forgot the details. Correct me if I am wrong.
racer_tim
New member
I run a restrictor plate. Took a thermostat housing, and tore off the spring the perch. End of story. Who cars how long it takes to warm up the water. You need to warm up the oil, brakes, tires, and tranny along with the water, so just take it easy the first couple of laps.
One less thing to fail and/or worry about.
One less thing to fail and/or worry about.
Actually, you will overheat your motor if you remove the thermostat. You need to slow the water down, or it won't cool down enough when it goes through the radiator.
Last edited:
Lael Cleland
New member
I run a tworn apart t-stat as a restrictor, and no fan 200F most of the time. less to go wrong. I have had a Whaller t-stats fail at the track. The golf W/ a/c rad works well@ 70-100bucks.........some day an all alluminum rad, after the LSD would be sweet!
I was constantly running too hot, especially in 90 degree July weather!! I ended up shrouding the radiator (most important), gutted a thermostat to make a restrictor, blocked the water pump bypass hose and the hose going in the side of the head so all coolant goes through the radiator before entering the radiator, put on an oil cooler (2nd most important!!) and eliminated the OE water cooled oil cooler and finally switched to water wetter. I also added a small electric fan for paddock cooling. It runs perfect now. good luck
Greg Gauper
New member
Lots of discussion regarding this over on the 'Open Wheel' site. The consensus is that slowing down the cooling flow to help cooling is a myth. The higher the flow rate, the more effective your cooling will be.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29010
Some really good discussion by some very sharp people...particularly Mr. Weitzenhof (7-Time National Champ).
racer_tim
New member
The fact that IT cars spin revolutions more than "stock" and that in order to slow the water pump down to spin at a more efficient rotation, that's why the larger water pump pulley is the way to go.
The entire reason that a thermostat is on all street cars, is to allow the water to warm up faster, and then with the water temp reaches the t-stat temperature, it opens up and lets water flow through the radiator. We don't need this on a race car.
That's why a restrictor is a good idea. One less thing to fail, and still allows the car to warm up, but not at the same "speed" as with a thermostat.
The entire reason that a thermostat is on all street cars, is to allow the water to warm up faster, and then with the water temp reaches the t-stat temperature, it opens up and lets water flow through the radiator. We don't need this on a race car.
That's why a restrictor is a good idea. One less thing to fail, and still allows the car to warm up, but not at the same "speed" as with a thermostat.
Last edited:
Thermostats are one of the things that is reliable. I seen thermostats fail, but those where beaten up and rusted cooling systems. I check all my thermostats, by dropping into a boiling water, and 1 in ~40 was defected.
The conception that at high RPM water is moving too fast was based on truth. Since the water as it goes down the fins of a rad can turn turbulent, losing it's efficiency of cooling. However that concept was true on seriously modified cars. Like NASCAR, they have overdrive system and large rads.
Good thing about production cars, is that its calculated into the development of the cooling system. So the too fast, actually does not happen on most production cars. However, most production cars have a pressure differential to increase the water pump efficiency. Just one of the things to look out for.
The conception that at high RPM water is moving too fast was based on truth. Since the water as it goes down the fins of a rad can turn turbulent, losing it's efficiency of cooling. However that concept was true on seriously modified cars. Like NASCAR, they have overdrive system and large rads.
Good thing about production cars, is that its calculated into the development of the cooling system. So the too fast, actually does not happen on most production cars. However, most production cars have a pressure differential to increase the water pump efficiency. Just one of the things to look out for.
tom_sprecher
Super Moderator
Apexspeed is a great source of general race engineering information and it's where I spent much time back when I was crew chief for a FC team.
Greg Gauper
New member
Turbulent flow in the radiator actually increases the rate of heat transfer! Heat exchanger designers actually try to achieve turbulance in the coolant flow as it passes thru the tubes. Turbulance is a function of the tube design and shape.
The only reason to slow down the speed of the water pump is to reduce cavitation....period! It's a band-aid.
NASCAR guys run some very special water pumps with custom impeller designs that allow very high flow without cavitating. From the discussion on the open wheel site by some very savy racecar engineering types:
Quote:
Q = M x C x Delta T
Where Q = rate of heat transfer
M = mass flow rate
C = Constant (specific heat of water) 4.186 joule/gram °C
Delta T = difference between temp out/temp in.
So, increasing flow rate increases rate of heat transfer.
Quote:
That slower flow gives better heat transfer IS an old wives tale. Faster flow always gives better heat transfer, and increased flow also keeps coolant temperature more uniform throughout the system, helping keep the head cool and improving heat transfer at the cool ends of the radiators and the exit of the engine (the front of the head). The old wives tale about slower flow originates from poorly designed flow paths and hot spots inside the engine that exacerbated localized boiling (cavitation), and slowing the flow (while also increasing coolant pressure in the engine) with a restrictor reduced overheating due to reducing that localized boiling. Thus, it was thought (by hands-on, non-engineering types) that slower flow was good. It was actually the increased pressure in the head caused by the exit restriction that was good, NOT the reduced flow (except for the minor effect of reduced cavitation in the head as a result of the slower flow).
Quote:
From the equation above, you CAN'T make the flow 'too fast', you always get better heat transfer with higher flow.
Eventually you would need a pump so big that the engine wouldn't be able to turn it, or the heat generated by the pump would be more than the engine produces, which would skew results somewhat, but I think we can leave those extremes out of this discussion.
Quote:
That is, of course, correct. The coolant flow can NEVER be too fast for heat transfer. The "fly in the ointment" is the engine internal cavitation/local-boiling problem, and as you said, the HP loss from the pump.
This matches my real world observation of heat exchanger designs for the hydraulic industry. More flow will always result in better heat transfer and more cooling.
The only reason to slow down the speed of the water pump is to reduce cavitation....period! It's a band-aid.
NASCAR guys run some very special water pumps with custom impeller designs that allow very high flow without cavitating. From the discussion on the open wheel site by some very savy racecar engineering types:
Quote:
Q = M x C x Delta T
Where Q = rate of heat transfer
M = mass flow rate
C = Constant (specific heat of water) 4.186 joule/gram °C
Delta T = difference between temp out/temp in.
So, increasing flow rate increases rate of heat transfer.
Quote:
That slower flow gives better heat transfer IS an old wives tale. Faster flow always gives better heat transfer, and increased flow also keeps coolant temperature more uniform throughout the system, helping keep the head cool and improving heat transfer at the cool ends of the radiators and the exit of the engine (the front of the head). The old wives tale about slower flow originates from poorly designed flow paths and hot spots inside the engine that exacerbated localized boiling (cavitation), and slowing the flow (while also increasing coolant pressure in the engine) with a restrictor reduced overheating due to reducing that localized boiling. Thus, it was thought (by hands-on, non-engineering types) that slower flow was good. It was actually the increased pressure in the head caused by the exit restriction that was good, NOT the reduced flow (except for the minor effect of reduced cavitation in the head as a result of the slower flow).
Quote:
From the equation above, you CAN'T make the flow 'too fast', you always get better heat transfer with higher flow.
Eventually you would need a pump so big that the engine wouldn't be able to turn it, or the heat generated by the pump would be more than the engine produces, which would skew results somewhat, but I think we can leave those extremes out of this discussion.
Quote:
That is, of course, correct. The coolant flow can NEVER be too fast for heat transfer. The "fly in the ointment" is the engine internal cavitation/local-boiling problem, and as you said, the HP loss from the pump.
This matches my real world observation of heat exchanger designs for the hydraulic industry. More flow will always result in better heat transfer and more cooling.
Greg Gauper
New member
More good info here regarding turbulent flow vs laminar flow:
http://www.overclockers.com/articles511/index02.asp
http://www.overclockers.com/articles511/index02.asp