Heater cores

[Knestis]

...
Or were the rules born from the fact that not all cars had AC "back in the day" but all of them did have heating systems. Therefore the rule leveled the playing field somewhat?

The rules grew from a philosophy that said, "Do the minimum stuff required to make a stock street car ready for racing." There's no modification cheaper than "no modification."

K

[JeffYoung]

Could be a safety issue as well -- on why we allow the removal of a/c but not the heater core. A/C runs on a pressurized system of a not so friendly gas. Not sure we want that in a car when there is a wreck.

A heater core, not so dangerous.

The rules grew from a philosophy that said, "Do the minimum stuff required to make a stock street car ready for racing." There's no modification cheaper than "no modification."

K

[lateapex911]

Regarding weight.

Seriously??

A heater core weighs what, 2 lbs? and the lines, what, another 2? And there are complaints about 4 pounds, located in the MIDDLE of the car!?!?!?. Remember, if you are weight crazy, you can drain the lines and the core. Pulleeeeeze. Are you REALLY that good as a driver that 4 pounds spells disaster?

If so, then, I bet this, when we meet, I'll find more than 4 extra pounds on your body. (4 out of 5 times.... unless we're talking pros, who's job depends on their leanness and conditioning)

(I'm 6'3", weigh 198, and am about 5 pounds over. I do long distance swim competitions, as well as some running and biking, and I could be in a LOT better shape. I'll bet half the IT racers don't consider their body as part of the car....)

Sorry, but exercise benefits the car, and you, in many more ways than removing the easy to use, can't forget to apply it vision enhancing heater core. If youre in shape, you don't NEED a cool suit. I see guys with them for 20 minute races, and honestly, I laugh. Really! Yeah, it's nice on grid, but for 20 minutes?? (Shakes head). I've done a 3 hour enduro in 93 degree heat without one, it's not that hard.

(And why is it that MANY Pro teams can't seem to keep a windshield clear...I assume their staffing and budget have considered RainX etc.)

All cars come with heaters, many come with AC, but not all. Leave the Heater, it makes life better, doing nothing is easier and simpler.

[DavidM]

Somebody edumacate me. When you use the heater core for "defrost" are you just using the fan or actually heating the air via the core? Seems like blowing hot, moist air on the window wouldn't do a whole lot of good. Here in the south you gotta run the air through the dryer to dry out the air in order for the defrost to have any affect.

David

[lateapex911]

My use has been in heavy rain, and I circulate coolant thru the core, on full heat. A weather guy can explain the science, but my windshield was clear in the areas that the defroster blew, and foggy at the perimeters in this race:

[JeffYoung]

Holy cow. That would be wet. Is that the one you won? Nice job....

[77ITA]

yeah, I don't even like to go outside when it's raining that hard

[lateapex911]

Holy cow. That would be wet. Is that the one you won? Nice job....

That's the one...was gridded 8th of about 22. when the skys opened on grid, they said, "% minutes to get back here if you want to change tires". Acck. I git back in 4.5 minutes, thanks to the help of the entire Blethen crew, and A Shepard or two, I think.

The Integra and CRX boys either ran in their trailers wide eyed, or slipped off.
I was able to get around 4 guys in the banking (first turn) then made a pass for the lead on lap 2 or 3. Oddly, the lap chart shows that on some laps I was 8 seconds faster than the next fastest car. Not oddly, each lap had two "Oh s8it! I just threw this thing away, what an idiot!" moments, where the car was sliding with little helm, but each time I got it back. After a few, I learned to expect it, and adjusted my line to slide where I wanted to be on the other side. Of course, visibility to the rear was less than perfect, but by halfway I figured out that I had a pretty decent lead, and slowed down.

Of course, I am a swimmer, and dirt stockers rule! But I got lucky and managed to herd it the distance. Windshield was 80% clear, but there was 2" of water on the floor sloshing about. If there were any field mice hiding in the car, they could have broken out there little surfboards and hung 10. (or however many they have)

[shwah]

David - I use heated air. My car never had AC, and warm air has more capacity to absorb water than cool air. Of course drying the air by cooling it down and precipitating out the water first will work even better, but all else equal, warm air blowing on a foggy windshield is better than ambient or no air blowing on it.

To the topic in general - my impression of this thread is that some folks think that 'real race cars' just don't have heater cores. My counter argument - 'real IT cars have working heaters'

[lateapex911]

LOL, Chris, my counter is, "Why would you want to do something to add more work, and help you lose a winnable race? " I guess if you're winning all the time, who cares, don't race in the rain. But that's too NASCAR for me.

Oh, one other idea as to the reason, when IT was first conceived, it was a "dual purpose" class. Cars needed to maintain certain things, that made them street capable. My first car in the mid 90s got driven all over New England to races on race tires, and race springs and shocks, packed to the gills with a tent and tools and spares.

[JLawton]

For those that would like to remove the heater core, there's always something called........... Production!! Now those are real race cars!!

[wcmcarlos]

David,
I dont have the answer to that question, but at this year's double DS at RR, it was raining cats & toads for the first run session.
I turned on the defroster, put fan on high, and it worked.
Worked in paddock, grid, and warm up lap.
No A/C, no heater, windows wide open, blower cleared the windshield. and double

Carlos

[DavidM]

I think if you can get enough air movement then the windshield won't fog. I know several people that just have fans that blow across the windshield. I was wondering if actually using the heater core to heat up the air was any good. The A/C in my daily driver is out and it's pretty much useless to run the defrost fan without being able to kick-on the A/C to dry out the air so I was thinking using the heater core wouldn't help too much.

David

[GKR_17]

Warm air holds more water, so using the heater does help. Plus, if the windshield is warmer, less vapor will condense there in the first place. Cooling it before heating will pull some of the moisture out so it would work even better. As should be clear from this topic, cars had defrosters long before they had AC.

[Tak]

If I recall correctly, a lot of cars that were eligible in the early days of IT had air conditioning as a dealer installed option. Makes sense to allow it's removal, since policing what is dealer vs factory installed would be, um, difficult. Remember that only factory installed items are technically legal. That's why dealer installed wings or bigger rims are not allowed.
As an avid motorcyclist who uses fog-x regularly in my helmet, I can testify that fog-x saturates and fogs up when it is really wet!
My 'defroster' (no ac...) with a plugged heater core clears my windshield just fine.
I would never run without a defrost fan. As for the heater core, I can go either way... Removing it is a lot of work for 2 lbs.

Tak
29 ITA SFR SCCA

[joeg]

Ambient Air is blown through the core and diverted to the windshield for a "defroster"

[jrvisual]

"9.1.3. Improved Touring Category Specifications
9. Driver/Passenger Compartment - Trunk

c. ... Other than modifications made to mount instruments and provide for roll cage installation, the remainder of the dash “board” or panel shall remain intact.

f. ... Other than to provide for the installation of required safety equipment or other authorized modifications, no other driver/passenger compartment alterations or gutting are permitted."

Just Playing Devil's Advocate and otherwise causing problems.

If you creatively interpret these lines from the ITCS, and creatively design your cage with front cross bar to pass though where your heater core should be, would it not be legal to remove your heater core. Getting that cross bar as far forward as possible would produce a safer cage and in many cars require the removal of the heater core.

Argue amongst yourselves

[lateapex911]

Interesting.
1- I own a 1st gen RX-7. And curiously, I'm on the ITAC. I know of 1st gens getting under the min. My car was just weighed post race at Mid Ohio at 2300. And I have a sunroof, as well as some other tricks up my sleeve that will pull 20 or more out of the car. Sadly, I'm 6'3", and I weigh 195 -205, depending ...so, with a median driver, it appears the weight is possible.

2- I have my cage dash bar running thru the dash, hitting the firewall, then running back to the A pillar downtubes. And my heater core is intact. And functional. using that allowance is old news, and cheesy, at least to me.

3- I still don't buy the "3pounds matters" line of thinking. YES, it adds up, BUT, I'm only talking about ONE three pound item, not TEN.

If you are not a pro and you're reading this, I'll give you $500 if you can bring your IT car, a blindfold and a 3 pound object. You put the blindfold on, get in the car...the 3 pounds may, or may not be there. We do it again, and again, and again. 5 laps per session. If you can show consistent laps that are faster when the weight is out, the money is yours.

Not to be cocky and sound like tGA, but you can't. My money is safe.

[GBugg]

Regarding weight.


(I'm 6'3", weigh 198, and am about 5 pounds over. ....)

Wow. Based on your avitar, I wouldn't have guessed you were that big. You obviously carry your weight high.

:026::026::026:

[lateapex911]

Good point, LOl. I tossed that avatar up as a test (and a joke, kinda) when the board switched to new software and some people were having difficulty with their avatars...

I suppose I should get serious and put something proper in, but it's been pretty popular....