IT National? Anyone else have this experience at a driver's meeting this year?

[DavidM]

Let's define the "championship" for a national class. Basically it's one race where all the top guys from each region get invited to race against each other to see who's the fastest. We already have that for IT. In fact we now have two: the ARRC and IT Fest. The best guys show up to race against each other to find out who's the fastest. It's not all formal like the Runoffs, but that's pretty much how it goes. The ARRC and IT Fest are better IMO because anybody can show up and play. You can come out and have fun even if you know you won't be competing for the win. The social aspect is just as big as the racing.

I would be against IT going national because I think the whole regional/national distinction is bogus. Let's just have classes and race weekends. You can still have the divisional championships like the SARRC and MARRS (which in some ways are more prestigious than a single race win) and you can still have the Runoffs. The ARRC and IT Fest would still be the great events they are today.

David

[Knestis]

I wrote an article about tires when I first started racing IT cars, but the clay tablet I pressed the cuneiform characters into got wet in a leaky basement situation two houses ago, and it was ruined.

>> Please follow the path of Spec Miata. Or need I make a list of the items that would be impacted with IT being Regional & National OR whatever else some of you would like to call IT in the future.

Since DD doesn't want to, maybe someone else will make a cogent case for the process by which anything would change for the "just have fun," participation-as-priority driver* if IT got National status. I truly do not understand how that might happen, absent any concern that additional competition is going to cost him/her finishing positions.

K

* The problem might be that we haven't defined this person. Doesn't have any desire to "move up" in racing, races on a very limited budget, uses tires until the tread peaks through, and (most importantly) cares more about taking the green than winning a trophy.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Well, my mama always taught me that before you invite guests over, you need to clean house. I think that lesson applies here. Before they invite IT over for dinner, Topeka needs to clean house in the National program because I'm 100% opposed to entering into a sty.

And she is a smart woman. What is missing here is that the idea of IT going National is (I believe) part of an overall scrub down and re-evaluation of the entire Club Racing program.

[seckerich]

nothing really, but the CRB/BOD has demonstrated time and time again the inability to actually do this.

doing away with the regional/national distinction and taking the top 24 is more of a broad sweeping philisophical change under which i have more faith that we actually will allow the undersubscribed classes die out.

I was looking more at leaving the regional/national seperation but have the IT classes have a chance to earn a spot at the runoffs. Top 24 go period (or whatever number) or top 20 get their own group and the others combine. No drop in regional racing (might see a gain) and they go to national championship. I think the pure economics and pressure on the CRB will make it possible. Just my opinion.

[tnord]

>> Please follow the path of Spec Miata. Or need I make a list of the items that would be impacted with IT being Regional & National OR whatever else some of you would like to call IT in the future.

Since DD doesn't want to, maybe someone else will make a cogent case for the process by which anything would change for the "just have fun," participation-as-priority driver* if IT got National status. I truly do not understand how that might happen, absent any concern that additional competition is going to cost him/her finishing positions.

K

* The problem might be that we haven't defined this person. Doesn't have any desire to "move up" in racing, races on a very limited budget, uses tires until the tread peaks through, and (most importantly) cares more about taking the green than winning a trophy.

I'll make an attempt, since I think I fit this demographic pretty well.

I'm a regular freaking guy (27yo with a white collar desk job), living in a regular town (suburb of Kansas City), with slightly above the national average income. I have no illusions about my talent level or prospects for a future in racing, which means I'm in this "just for fun." But ya know what, that doesn't mean I where I finish doesn't have an impact on the level of fun I have. I played three sports through highschool, and continue play in adult sports leagues to this day. I'm a competitive person who has said the "it's not whether you win or lose" thing was BS since my T-Ball days. the other aspect of enjoyment comes from actually having competition, ie; grid size.

If IT were to go National, and follow the path of SM (which it will for the most part), the average prep level of both national and regional cars would go up. Keeping in mind the two things on-track that determine my enjoyment, in order to stay competitive and maintain the same level of enjoyment, my prep level must increase and I must burn more money. On the grid size front I also lose out because half of the people i used to race with are now focused on their National efforts.

So the "fun" aspect of the on-track events has changed for me because there are fewer people to actually compete with, and finishing lower on the grid is less fun for me. I can curb that a little bit by spending more, but it's still not as good as it was.

As for the social aspect of my racing enjoyment? That's changed also. We usually have regional races on Saturday, and nationals on Sunday in MiDiv. Before when SM was regional only, it used to be a big party on both Fri and Sat nights with everyone hanging out together, drinking, walking the paddock, etc. Now, that still happens on Fri night before the regional, but on Sat night people go into their trailers to analyze data, retreat to the hotel early to get good sleep, and focus far less on "fun," and far more on the big race the next day.

To my eye, there's a few different ways things get "worse" for the IT group if the National variable is added. I have no idea how much sense my ramblings made, but hey, I tried.

[cfullgraf]

My vote would be to leave IT a Regional class and especially leave the rules as they are.

IT as it is is a great place to start racing, a great place for very competitive racing, a great place for inexpensive racing (relatively speaking) and a great place for reliable racing. History has proven that any National class suffers from rules creep and will become very expensive in due time.

I've done the Run-offs thing (13th in CSR in 1983)and it is not all that it is cracked up to be for a back marker. Oh, it is quite the experience but even on a budget, it is very expensive.

If you want to run the Run-offs, there are already 24 classes to choose from. Build or buy a car and knock yourself out but leave IT alone.

[Doc Bro]

The problem with IT going national is once it goes national it can't come back to regional the way it currently is. It will change forever.

The good news is that I haven't had a good "remember when" conversation in a while....


R

[Knestis]

Thanks, Travis. In my head, you have a more competitive nature than I'd have ascribed to the "have fun" racer in question but that's helpful.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

Let me pose this to Trav...

Let's say that some idiotic company hired me, Bowie, the Mosers, Amy and Ruck (insert any other well-prepped ITA car) to head up a new Idiot division HQ'd in Kansas. We all reloacte and insert ourselves into your ITA series. What do you do?

My point is that the 'stakes' or prep level can be raised at any time now. There is nothing to stop it...and you have noplace to go but out of the class if you don't like your resultant finishing position.

With a National program, your Regional program might stay somewhat 'intact' in this scenario if those drivers/cars went National.

Just another angle. It's an interesting conversation. This is the first I have heard of anyone asking for real member input. I suggest we all make our feelings known. While *I* would like to race for a NC in my IT car, I would defer to whatever is best for IT and the Club as a whole. It's not really a deal breaker for me as I think I like the rules too much to change classes...until Prod gets it's Limited Prep house in order....

[lateapex911]

***Where is it written that it's an entry-level class? And what's the definition of an entry-level class, anyway?***

If IT closed wheel cars are not entry level for SCCA Regional racing please tell us all what closed wheel class is an entry level Regional class.

I know a guy who bought a 20 year old race car for $3500, and has been racing it for a couple years regionally. He's finishing in the top 4 regularly. He bought an E Prod Z car.

He's having fun, and enjoying "entry level" regional racing.

If we didn't have the regional distinction, he'd probably hit the local races that fit his budget, his desire for competition, his social desires, and so on. Because we might lose a couple races on the schedule (perhaps some poorly attended races from the National participants) he might slide down the results sheets at a couple of races, but as long as he didn't fall into the mental masterbation aspect of worrying about if he finished 3rd or 5th, he'd be racing the same guys, having the same fun, for the same money. He knows full well that he's not "fast" or "national caliber", but he's having fun. Why would that change?

"Entry level" is where you find it.

[JeffYoung]

It's funny Andy, I have the OPPOSITE concern. I don't want to the lose the fast ITS guys in the ultra competitive SEDiv -- I think we have the fastest group of ITS cars in the country -- to Nationals.

We have 10 to 20 car fields right now that are about 1/3 guys who can win in any division, 1/3 mid pack and 1/3 new guys and totally "for fun" folks. The way I see this shaking out is if IT goes National, that top 1/3 (of which I am finally knocking on the door of) deserts our traditional regional races for the grind of the National tour.

I don't want to see that. Right now, to me, a SARRC championship and a decent showing at the ARRC is fulfillment enough. I wouldn't trade that for the threat I see that National status poses to car counts and the integrity of our ruleset.

At least with just doing away with the national/regional distinction, there is less of any issue for car counts since the "traditional" regional races still generate points. But I am really afraid of IT drivers, through the ITAC, losing "control" over the IT ruleset to an influx of former Prod, GT and other drivers (who have different views on how rules should be) who want to race IT because it is national.

[Racerlinn]

* The problem might be that we haven't defined this person. Doesn't have any desire to "move up" in racing, races on a very limited budget, uses tires until the tread peaks through, and (most importantly) cares more about taking the green than winning a trophy.

Raises hand.

[jjjanos]

My point is that the 'stakes' or prep level can be raised at any time now. There is nothing to stop it...and you have noplace to go but out of the class if you don't like your resultant finishing position.

True, but compare the attitude/philosophy/wealth of the average driver who is motivated to compete in the National program to the attitude/philosophy/wealth of the average driver who is racing in IT. My gut feeling is that the former is far more likely to not only want to throw cubic money at his car, but is better equipped to do the same. More importantly, the type of person who is willing to burn money to be at the pointy end of the field is far more likely to be interested in that official gold medal (OGM) and won't do it in IT because it doesn't have an OGM.

While the possibility that someone is willing to burn that sort of cash exists in IT, it is far more likely that they will choose the National Program as the place to do it.

With a National program, your Regional program might stay somewhat 'intact' in this scenario if those drivers/cars went National.

If IT isn't national, those wanting an OGM leave the category, stop racing regionals and go into the National-qualified category. If IT is national, those wanting an OGM stay in the category, stop racing regionals and go race where National points are awarded. Either way, they are gone from the regional racing program.

Again I am asking -
Other than their desire for personal glory through winning an OGM, what problem of the Club are those advocating this change hoping to solve?

[planet6racing]

If restricted Regionals are not held to bolster Division/Regional profit why are the restricted Regionals held with National events? < That's a question stated with respect to your comment which you should respond to.

David:

The Cat National last year had a handful (OK, maybe 2 handfuls) of IT entrants. There is NO WAY that our participation in that event helped the National race significantly.

It was fun to run in DP in the National race. That was an experience I won't forget anytime soon!

[lateapex911]

A couple comments:

First, I see lots of concern over what I'd term "the escalation of prep, and how it affects my world" Interestingly, people see this as a bad thing, that they will be turned into losers by the evil dollar and prep levels. But, often, it's more a case of the size of the pond. Many of us are happy racing in a little pond, and being a big, or nearly big fish. What is being forgotten is that there are lots of bigger ponds, with bigger fish. Let's not kid ourselves, there is only one "Fastest guy" in any class....and he's likely not in your (or my) pond.

Second, this "request for input" is coming from a backdoor, and is rather incomplete. We, (I) (the ITAC) don't know what other factors are being discussed and tossed about. So, please write, but don't just write that you want IT national, or regional, but write about the conditions you see as being needed IF you thought IT could go national, or why you think it should not be national .....and think big picture. I'm not on the inside of this discussion , but I bet my bottom dollar that he guys up the ladder are discussing a much broader plan that involves far more than merely IT going national.

Make your opinions known. The BoD and the CRB should get your email.

[JeffYoung]

Jeff, while I totally disagree with it as a solution, I think the "unstated problem" that the Club is trying to fix is the complete FUBAR that production/GT classes and the Boreoffs have become.

Old cars mostly. Limited attractiveness of the car sets to the general public. Crazy rulesets. Silly costs. Low car counts.

The "quick" fix to all of this is to take an extraordinarily successful regional class consisting of a "rational" level of prep, high car counts and interesting cars and turn it into the new flagship of the BoreOffs. Or if not the flagship, at least the economic "horsepower" to support it.

[Knestis]

...and (1) is that a bad thing? (2) Under what conditions to preserve what's good about Regional IT would it be worthwhile to do?

K

[tnord]

Let me pose this to Trav...

Let's say that some idiotic company hired me, Bowie, the Mosers, Amy and Ruck (insert any other well-prepped ITA car) to head up a new Idiot division HQ'd in Kansas. We all reloacte and insert ourselves into your ITA series. What do you do?

i go back to the class which my car is built for....SM. the reason i'm in ITA is the Spec Tire debacle in SM, and the contingency awarded by Kumho for IT. if you guys show up, i get my ass beat and my free tires wash up. short term i go back to SM, long term, i don't know what i'd do.

My point is that the 'stakes' or prep level can be raised at any time now. There is nothing to stop it...and you have noplace to go but out of the class if you don't like your resultant finishing position.

i wasn't trying to say that as soon as i drop down the grid i quit. i was just using absoltes to attempt to formulate "fun and enjoyment."

With a National program, your Regional program might stay somewhat 'intact' in this scenario if those drivers/cars went National.
....

regional contingency would likely dry up for IT, and the grids would be smaller/less competitive. the "influx" of drivers you talk about from other classes would be to run nationals, not regionals.

yes, i know how fragile my little world is being able to win ITA races in a SM, but I promise my opposition to IT going National without a larger scale restructuring of Club Racing is from a completely objective view, and not for selfish reasons.

[JoshS]

If IT isn't national, those [IT drivers] wanting an OGM leave the category, stop racing regionals and go into the National-qualified category. If IT is national, those [IT drivers] wanting an OGM stay in the category, stop racing regionals and go race where National points are awarded. Either way, they are gone from the regional racing program.

You just addressed what happens to two categories of people who are already in IT. And a fair assessment too.

But you are not asking what happens to other club members.

[bobfv2]

I want to thank all of you for putting input into this thread, As I said this was just a feeler question to see if people were interested in going National racing if and when the CRB ever brings it to us. I personally do not want to do anything to damage the regional series of these classes. I just want to make sure I can vote the direction my members wish to go. I personally believe that going National Racing could hurt the classes involved. Some areas are very strong and the ARRC proves this year after year. Some of our areas are weak in attendance and maybe this would make them stronger. The CenDiv TRO series is going strong and if you want to continue it, I am all for it.
Once again thanks for your input and I will continue to watch the thread and let you know if anything new comes up.
Bob Lybarger
Director Area 5