Plain Old Gas ( POG )

77ITA

77ITA

New member
A new thread has been started that will be the official POG site for info, news, and listing of participants. Please see http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23935 for all future discussion on the topic.




Hi guys,

I'd like to share a concept with the Improved Touring crowd that comes from a current practice within Spec Miata. Please grab a cold beverage and have a read. :)

In 2007, there was a great deal of discussion over at the specmiata.com web forums with regards to "exotic" or "hot" fuels being used by some of the front runners to gain an advantage over the competition (or to avoid a disadvantage). These fuels are technically legal by SCCA GCR standards, relatively expensive, and the topic of their use is quite controversial. It is also a fact that people are currently using "exotic" fuels in IT.

To learn more about the background and the types of fuel I am talking about, please read here:
"do exotic fuels work? Yes!" http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/1/2665.html


I've had a small amount of testing with such an "exotic" fuel and can verify that there are gains to be made especially with proper a/f ratio tuning. I can also verify that in my personal opinion, it would feel like an unfair advantage to be racing with these fuels. I just don't think it's within the spirit of IT to be running fuel that cost $36/gallon or more and is not [relatively] readily available .

Now that you've learned about the fuels (I'm sure a lot of you already knew of them), the topic at hand is how each of you feel about using them or competing with others that are using them.

Instead of worrying about a rule change in a field that would require a chemical engineering degree to understand, the Spec Miata guys over at www.specmiataclassifieds.com devised a bit of a gentleman's agreement know as Plain Old Gas ( POG for short ).

POG is a pledge (honor) system that drivers can publicly participate in by placing a "POG" sticker on their gas flap.

pog.jpg


Anyone displaying a POG sticker on their gas flap is proclaiming that they:
1. Are using "plain old gas".
2. Are willing to provide a sample and/or a sniff to any other driver within their class.
3. Are willing to allow an inspection of their tail pipe and/or a spark plugs by any driver within their class.

POG is defined to include:
1. What can be purchased from a pump at a retail gas station for legal street use.
2. What can be purchased from a track pump at the track where the race is held.
3. Must meet all existing SCCA fuel regulations for the class.
4. Must not contain additives.

To learn about the concept of POG in Spec Miata, please visit these links:
DO NOT TRY TO SIGN UP FOR A POG STICKER YET. THIS IS CURRENTLY FOR SPEC MIATA ONLY.
http://specmiataclassifieds.com/SMF/index.php?topic=103.0
http://www.plainoldgas.com/

Once you've had the time to review my post and the all the posts on the links provided, I would love to hear your opinions on POG (as a concept) and if you'd like to see this or a similar concept in Improved Touring. Decals and participation would most likely be free and could be easily kept track of in a post here on the forum or on a private website.

Credit for the concept goes to Tom and Steve Scheifler (St. Louis), but I've talked with Tom about working together so I can spearhead this concept within the Improved Touring group.

Either way, look for a POG sticker on my ITR Honda S2000 when I debut the car at the ARRC..... and you're each welcome to smell what's in my fuel tank. ;)

DO NOT TRY TO SIGN UP FOR A POG STICKER YET. THIS IS CURRENTLY FOR SPEC MIATA ONLY.

Respectfully submitted for your input,
 
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Looks like you don't include 100LL Av gas from the local FBO pump. Is that an overcite, or on purpose?

James
 
Z3_GoCar said:
Looks like you don't include 100LL Av gas from the local FBO pump. Is that an overcite, or on purpose?

James
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100LL and any other aviation fuel is intentionally excluded for a number of reasons.
 
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77ITA said:
100LL and any other aviation fuel is intentionally excluded for a number of reasons.
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Ugh. Guess what? It's "Plain Ole [Leaded high octane] Gas"...I use it in multiple vehicles, one of them being my airplane...

I was "on board" up to this point...if you guys want some details on this POG, I can provide it...remember: the whole world ain't Spec Miata, and if you want the world's cooperation... - GA
 
We are bringing 15 cars to the first race in a week. 14 of them run regular-unleaded pump gas. I get a lot of crap for being the only guy who needs super-unleaded!
 
Greg,

I wouldn't personally consider 100LL or any other aviation fuel to be within the concept of POG, but let's talk about that! After all, I want this to be a community thing.

So, why do you feel that avgas could be considered POG? Do you believe it's readily available and easily accessible to all racers?

In St. Louis, I only know of one retail pump to buy avgas (I'm sure there could be more), but it's $7/gallon and not intended or legal to be pumped into a car.
 
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77ITA said:
Do you believe it's readily available and easily accessible to all racers?
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Depends, but no, not necessarily. But, really, is leaded high octane racing fuel "easily accessible to all racers" at "all" race tracks...?

100LL is available depending on your local small airport's standards/concerns; most will sell it to you, but some airport operators get nervous with someone that walks up with cans in hand (remember, the 9/11 asswipes learned to fly at small airports, so "we" are always on guard). Legally - at least Federally - there's no restrictions, as long as it's not used on the highway, for the most part sales are up to your local FBO's discretion.

I guess it comes down to what the priorities of the group are. If the group wants the ability for anyone, anywhere to walk up and buy the fuel, then I agree that 100LL may be disqualified (but then again, so may be leaded racing fuel at some/many tracks). But, if the priority is to discourage someone from using these weird-ass toluene, propolene, assolene, poopoleen brews, then 100LL is nowhere near that and is more kindred spirit with Sunoco 100GT...

Also, to be considered when asking other race classifications to join in, many of us are allowed engine modifications far and above the stock engine "ideal" of Spec Miata, and thus need something more than 93 octane...

I'll read through the web site docs tomorrow, and become a bit more informed of the expectations/standards...

GA
 
3. Must meet all existing SCCA fuel regulations for the class.
4. Must not contain additives.
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How do you deal with alcohol enriched fuels that you get at the pump? They don't pass SCCA standards. Just curious

I think what you're up to is good, but its pretty hard to enforce. Some of the really exotic stuff will pass the current testing while some POG's will not.

Short of a 'pump around' (everyone pumps out half their tank and hands it to the next guy who dumps it in his tank) I'm not sure how you do address it.
 
Hence the gentleman's agreement aspect.

I run 100 unleaded for just a little more comfort that I won't blow things up if something becomes not right in the fueling or igntion. Would that qualify as POG? I buy it at the local gas station pump.
 
First and foremost:

DO NOT TRY TO SIGN UP FOR A POG STICKER YET. THIS IS CURRENTLY FOR SPEC MIATA ONLY.

Tom e-mailed me tonight and mentioned that there are already IT racers trying to sign up over at plainoldgas.com - Do no do this yet... If/when the time comes, you will get the stickers from me :cool:

Greg,

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree that avgas fits the concept of POG. It's certainly up for discussion and I appreciate your input.

MMiskoe,
There is no enforcement. This is a proposed gentleman's agreement, not a rule and the specifications about what type of fuel is adequate as written. Yes it could be torn apart and we could argue semantics about fuel like we do with every other IT rule, but that's not what this is about at all. :)

Chris,
100 unleaded, if purchased at the track (or the same as what is available at the track), would certainly be classified as POG as far as I'm concerned. Such fuel is would be available to all competitors at that track and really doesn't give any advantage.

Everyone,

Again, we could tear this apart and argue each and every detail, but that's not what this is about at all.

:)
 
77ITA said:
First and foremost:

Chris,
100 unleaded, if purchased at the track (or the same as what is available at the track), would certainly be classified as POG as far as I'm concerned. Such fuel is would be available to all competitors at that track and really doesn't give any advantage.

Everyone,

Again, we could tear this apart and argue each and every detail, but that's not what this is about at all.

:)
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OK. I buy mine from the local gas station pump, it's just Sunoco 100 unleaded. I'm not trying to nit pick details, I just wouldn't want to run the sticker unless what I am doing is consedered within the spirit of the agreement.
 
77ITA said:
I'm sorry, but I just don't agree that avgas fits the concept of POG.
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:shrug:

Then, unfortunately, I cannot support the "POG" initiative. I agree with it in concept, but disagree with its implementation. Gasoline is gasoline (and, in fact, avgas is far more stable and consistent than any other world-wide...and ASTM-certified and -tested).

I suggest the initiative is better suited for stock-engined, stock-ecu'd classes such as Spec Miata (hah!) and Showroom Stock (?) but not for classes that allow internal engine modifications and modded ECUs. While I may not (probably don't) "need" higher-octane fuels, I'll never run street gas again; I've burned up too many engines in testing and development to skimp on a few dollars per gallon in fuels... - GA
 
Yea, for this to work in the IT world, where high(er) compression engines are more common, (ITC=10.5, > ITR=11.5), guys like Chris, who is buying "safety" gas...need to be covered. Limiting it to "at the track" (or the same as at the track, by that do you mean exact manufacturer, etc?) is adding lots of inconvenience and probably un-needed expense to the agreement.

I never buy track gas...my car runs as well on 87 unleaded as it does on anything else. Somebody, please educate me as to what is typically available at the track, and, to take it a step further, what is the difference between those options, and the AV gas tGA speaks of?

If I understand the intent of the policy correctly... (Kirk's web bots will fire off an email to him upon seeing the term "policy" used at IT.com, LOL)...it's to keep the exotic and wacko formulations out. But, that might need amending for IT vs. SM. Perhaps there could be a second tier "POG" sticker, one with a "Declaration" blank line where the owner Declares his fuel, and writes it on the line. For me, that would be "87 UL", for Greg, that would be "100 LL", and for Chris, that would be "100 UL". Thoughts?
 
I do like the idea, though it would indeed seem to require some adjustment for IT to make sense...

I guess I'm just cheap, I buy my gas at Costco... :D

Ack, can't do it anyway - no gas flap to stick the sticker on! I guess my car's just too old, time to put 'er out to pasture... :(
 
I don't see this working in IT. All of this is so far from the intended 'plain ole gas' that it's not even funny.

100 from the airfield or 100 from some rare 'pump' is just as available to me as having a 55 gallon drum of some cool VP Racing stuff dropped off at my shop and me pumping it into containers for track duty.

If you wanna be a POG guy, get your gas at gas stations.

Although I would be eligible for this sticker (as defined by the SM thread) I would NEVER want it to become a negative thing that guys in IT weren't doing it. Like Greg said, piece of mind costs little in the long run. It's why I change my fliuds after every race and hubs, rotors and pads mid-year. Needed? Probably not but what is happening here is an attempt to legislate cost........

Now if I was a guy who knew of a car that spewed fumes so bad that I got sick or my eyes watered, I would have a talk with that person for sure. Safety is a seperate issue in my eyes.

It's a noble effort for sure. Problem is, we have no relaible tests.
 
Andy Bettencourt said:
100 from the airfield or 100 from some rare 'pump' is just as available to me as having a 55 gallon drum of some cool VP Racing stuff dropped off at my shop and me pumping it into containers for track duty.
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100 octane is readily available at dozens of pumps in my area, and in most areas - it is hardly 'at some rare pump'. We have the hot rod and muscle car guys to thank for that. I just buy it there because it is at least $1 / gallon cheaper than at the track. Here is a list (I don't know how current) of outlets for the Sunoco stuff I use, I have seen others that sell a similar VP fuel.
http://www.sunocoinc.com/site/Consumer/RaceFuels/260GT100Locations/
 
thanks for the great replies and conversation so far... this is the exact type of feedback I was looking for.

The main goal at hand is to not include any "exotic" fuels under the classification of POG, but also to not include fuels that are not readily and easily available to everyone.

I realize that IT is much different than SM and that some people need higher octane fuel, but I doubt there are any IT cars the require better smelling gas than what is available at your average track or retail pump.

I realize that there are a lot of "what-ifs" and POG lacks the fine detail and definition of a rule, but that's just the way it should be.

It's obvious what the spirit of POG is and it's up to each individual to decide if it's in-line with their philosophy and if they want to participate. I feel very strongly about not making any adjustments to the definition of POG and feel that it would fit into IT just fine.
 
shwah said:
100 octane is readily available at dozens of pumps in my area, and in most areas - it is hardly 'at some rare pump'. We have the hot rod and muscle car guys to thank for that. I just buy it there because it is at least $1 / gallon cheaper than at the track. Here is a list (I don't know how current) of outlets for the Sunoco stuff I use, I have seen others that sell a similar VP fuel.
http://www.sunocoinc.com/site/Consumer/RaceFuels/260GT100Locations/
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Chris, you are indeed fortunate to have that many outlets; in VA we have 5, one at Summit, one at VIR (literally opposite ends of the state), and 3 others that are at least an hour away for me.

Then I have the local airport, which is 10 minutes away, and last I checked was $1.50 or so cheaper than the gas at the track. And I am one of those fools who chose to tune the ECU for 100 octane, so my choices are limited. I appreciate and support the idea behind the POG initiative, but if it will cost me more money & added inconvenience to join the cause I will also have to sit this one out.
 
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