Death of a championship

[gran racing]

or eliminating the need for so many regions in such a small area. [/b]

That's what I said before but the reaction by a few was not so popular. Out in some of the Western regions, they have been successful with co-hosting events.

I do really, really like the idea of hosing some of the meetings online. There are plenty of programs out there to facilitate this and is would make it easier for more people to become involved.

[lateapex911]

That's what I said before but the reaction by a few was not so popular. Out in some of the Western regions, they have been successful with co-hosting events.

I do really, really like the idea of hosing some of the meetings online. There are plenty of programs out there to facilitate this and is would make it easier for more people to become involved. [/b]

Hosting them would be cool too....

[gran racing]

Would it be possible to sub-rent a day at LRP? Meaning, sell it to SCDA or another HPDE group to help with the rental fee costs.

[RKramden]

<Dave&#39;s broken record> Make better use of PDXs

For what it&#39;s worth, SCDA has a two day HPDE on Friday June 22 & Sat. the 23rd. No entries would be accepted that were post marked prior to 5/15. Within one week (maybe sooner), both days were sold out at $325 per entry, per day.

I&#39;m not criticising any past decisions for event planning, rather making a suggestion for future events. Yeah, I know we have one PDX at NHIS this year, but hopefully we&#39;ll see LRP ones in addition to that to help spread the LRP rental fee costs amoung the other numerous benefits it would provide. </Dave&#39;s broken record>
[/b]

Our PDX on Monday has 24 whole (or partial) cars entered.

Not exactly a sell out.

Dave - Who will be in Pit Lane working for SCDA on TUESDAY.

[gran racing]

I can&#39;t say I&#39;m not too surprised. Dave, you know the NHIS numbers for various club compared to LRP just as well as I do.

I&#39;ll see you on that Tuesday.

[JLawton]

What about doing Pro IT races like they do in other regions? What would be the benefits and draw backs?

[benspeed]

Mr. Lawton has a very good suggestion here. The OMP challenge series at LRP was well attended and had full grids. We should really consider this - make a track championship/pro series at LRP for the IT cars (and other full[u] race classes) which also pay out regional and NARRC points. People would feel less put out by the higher fees to run a pro race, win a real trophy and get some $$ and prizes. The track could then sell tickets and concessions and actually market the series to to local fans.

Problem is this would be very contingent on partnership from LRP management and to date they have demonstrated such lack of vision and poor marketing I doubt they could pull it off. We as a club don&#39;t have the marketing staff to round up the sponsors and contingency prizes - the track would need to do that IMO. And they should do that work since they keep the $$ on a good day and pay the losses on a bad day. Any track promoter worth their salt does this work in circle track. Does LRP have a dedicated Full Time marketer/promoter?

Ben

[lateapex911]

The OMP challenge reffered to was started in the early 90s, either 92 or 93. I was in the first one, finished 5th, and won, $88, LOL. (Which, up to last years ARRC was my biggest payday in racing) I think Kurt Weiss won it, (you&#39; probably recognize the name, he chaired the CRB for a few years. Wilson Wright (you&#39;ve heard of him too, he&#39;s won the Runoffs multiple times) made an awesome run in his orange RX-2.

It was at the end of the day, and it was called the "Mini Stock Challenge", for ITA and or ITC cars, I think, as there was a ton of ITC cars at the time..

I can&#39;t remember if it was the support race for the NACAR Busch race that year, but if not, it became that shortly thereafter, and was at the mercy of the NASCAR organizers. One year it was abbreviated because of the length of the NASCAR event.

Peter Roberts was very involved, and i think largely responsible for getting us "In". Soon it became an ITA and ITS event, and the "challenge" aspect was added, which included two other races. The final race was the premier event though, as it was one of the NASCAR support events, and we lowly IT&#39;ers loved the chance to run in front of a crowd, even if was a dwindling crowd, LOL. IIRC, Wilson Wright broiught out his seldom used ITS RX-7 one year and took the show.

But I remember hearing complaints from Lime Rock that the cars were shoddy, old, and we weren&#39;t very "professional" appearing. They worried it hurt the show. I thought the racing was GREAT!

It seemed to me that the dealing with Lime Rock was always tenious, and it got tiring, for volunteers like Peter. And I think Lime Rock decided Spec Miatas would put on a better show.

So, if any series is to hinge on Lime Rocks desire to "promote" it, I&#39;m afraid we&#39;re in for a long uphill climb...

I always thought we&#39;d be the perfect group to have at a big event like the NASCAR race, as Lime Rock could create any form of race they wanted for the fans... Standing starts? Half way yellow flag with a 5 car inversion at the front? And......if it rained, we could run while the fans sat out the delay! I know I&#39;d bring rain tires and run two or three races while they waited for good conditions, LOL.

But Lime Rock wants bigger things..

[Eric Parham]

The OMP challenge reffered to was started in the early 90s, either 92 or 93. I was in the first one, finished 5th, and won, $88, LOL. (Which, up to last years ARRC was my biggest payday in racing) I think Kurt Weiss won it, (you&#39; probably recognize the name, he chaired the CRB for a few years. Wilson Wright (you&#39;ve heard of him too, he&#39;s won the Runoffs multiple times) made an awesome run in his orange RX-2.

It was at the end of the day, and it was called the "Mini Stock Challenge", for ITA and or ITC cars, I think, as there was a ton of ITC cars at the time..[/b]

That sure brings back some good memories, but I remember it first being called the "Little Lemans" and including ITA and ITB. Standing start (after co-drivers ran to cars to "release" them) with mandatory pit-stop/driver-change. What fun!!! I think that was one of my first SCCA Road Races. Me and my co-driver/sponsor (Wayne Boyd of Narragansett Imported Auto Parts) drove my nearly stock VW Scirocco 8V, which still served as my street car, to finish in the money (3rd, IIRC, not sure if ITA or ITB at that time). Wayne turned out to be quite the ringer once he adjusted from his usual FV ride (the Scirocco needed a later apex, especially in West Bend I was told) :-)

[JLawton]

My first race after getting a novice permit was the Import Challenge......Man, did I get my a$$ kicked!!

But I remeber the last one, at LEAST a dozen people who watched all said we put on the best show of the weekend!!

I&#39;m sure there is new management there and have forgotten the "not so nice" cars. We should give it a try.

[lateapex911]

Problem is, the "new" management seems to be decidedly less SCCA interested/friendly than the old, and by a wide margin. Feel free to head this up though. Call Serge and see what he thinks, and get the contact info. But make sure you go through the right channels, as negotiations with management seem to be tricky, at best. (To my eye, but I have no inside knowledge)

[ITB40]

Well that generated some good ideas. Thanks to all that responded. I think everything should be on the table in these discussions. We have seen smaller entries at most events this year, some of which can be blamed on increased gas cost, poor economy, higher entry fees or whatever, but the real concern for me is if the reason is because of a general lack interest. Has our form of racing become stale? The idea behind a Regional race series (NARRC, NERRC, NYSRRC, MARRS, etc.) is to generate interest and participation. That doesn&#39;t seem to be working these days. Why? Too many different series? Too much traveling?

Some ideas that have been floated sound great, like the "Pro IT" mentioned earlier. It was fun and racing on the Busch weekend was great. (I remember one year it rained, so they put the IT group on the track and our race was on. I was acting as a spotter for the TV guys on a tower on the main straight (broken car) and could watch the race all around the track. It was awesome. The Busch thing was finally cancelled and the TV folks gave consideration to televising the IT race instead. They decided against it because they thought it would "make the NASCAR guys look like wimps".) Another idea is to limit the number of classes running in order to boost track time. Say only the top 12 classes or so in participation the year before. I think the early NESCCA series ran something like that when Oscar first suggested it. The idea is to have fewer run groups and longer sessions. As ITS and ITA drivers that idea seems great, but I think the ITC and maybe the ITB drivers might not think so. I believe this is what NASA and others are doing to boost the track time and give you more for your money. Should we consider something like that?

Bottom line is we need the drivers to organize into a group to discuss and then suggest changes. Regions can&#39;t run races without drivers, but keep in mind, the Regions can&#39;t run races without tracks and that requires rentals and other expenses. If the Regions can&#39;t pay, they can&#39;t rent the tracks and there are no races. Just so everyone is on the same page, it costs $53,000 to rent Lime Rock for an unmuffled weekend. Add to that about $15,000 for the sanction fee, insurance, NARRC fee, NYSRRC fee, end-of-day parties, and the rest. At a $300 entry fee a Region needs 227 entries just to break even. It doesn&#39;t cover the cost of replacing equipment (radios, fire bottles, computers for T&S, etc.) which occasionally need replacing. More entries would result in lower entry fees to reach break even and lower entries (what the Regions have faced in the last several years) means higher entry fees. There is a law of diminishing returns here so that the loud time available/maximum cars on track(38)/maximum number of groups (maybe 8) generally yields a maximum entry of about 300 cars. Even with great participation, rising track costs have to result in higher entry fees.

I will take any suggestions the group makes to the NARRC committee or anyone else to get this situation turned around. Thanks.

Butch O&#39;Connor

[Dave Zaslow]

Butch,

There are a number of topics covered in this thread that need to be broken down onto discreet items. Here are a few:

1- What should the NARRC championship consist of?

Number of NARRC events?

How are points awarded (look at NARRC vs. NYSSRC vs. MARRS rules for example)?

What tracks are included?

Mandatory races by region or by track?

Double points for the NARRC-offs?

2- How do the regions get racers to the track?

Restricted regionals for the most subscribed groups?

Longer races?

One day races?

Less races?

Prizes other than trophies?

Don&#39;t schedule races two weeks in a row even if that means losing a date at a track?

3- How do regions insure that putting on an event at a high cost track makes enough money not to put them into financial jeopardy?

Share the risk for certain dates/tracks?

Fight like cats and dogs for the dates and the rules?

Move the races to Memphis Motorsports Park and save $40K+ per weekend ;-)?

Perhaps we can contact our esteemed webmaster to make this a sub-forum in the Northeast section and start the conversation going. Of course we need to do the same with all of the special interest forums such as prod, miata, formula, etc. It may be better to have NNJR&#39;s or NESSCA highly esteemed webmasters set this up so we have one forum for all of those interested parties, racers and organizers, without looking at 12 different places for ideas. Then we should make sure their is a direct link from all of the interest groups to that forum.

Dave Zaslow

[ITB40]

Hi Dave,

We are going to try to get either the NESCCA or NNJR website set up to host an all group (IT, SM, and all the rest) board. Your post of questions is an excellent starting point. Darrell Anthony (DA to most of us) the current RE of NNJR, has offered to host the "town hall" meeting at LRP during our regional there in August. I think it gives us the best chance to get the most drivers involved and enough time to discuss the issues. The proposal has been sent to the NARRC committee so stay tuned.

Butch

[gran racing]

Excellent idea Butch!!!!

[RKramden]

Hi Dave,

We are going to try to get either the NESCCA or NNJR website set up to host an all group (IT, SM, and all the rest) board. Your post of questions is an excellent starting point. Darrell Anthony (DA to most of us) the current RE of NNJR, has offered to host the "town hall" meeting at LRP during our regional there in August. I think it gives us the best chance to get the most drivers involved and enough time to discuss the issues. The proposal has been sent to the NARRC committee so stay tuned.

Butch
[/b]

Butch,

There are a few other races at LRP between now an August. You could probably do more than one meeting and hit a larger group of people. Or, make it class specific, e.g. Formula cars once, IT another, Miata at a third.
If too many people go, you might not be able to deal with everything at once, or some people may feel disenfranchised by the other vocal complainers there.

In any case, you need to advertise the meetings starting at NER&#39;s DS/regional so people will know to allow time to go to it, if they are interested.

Also, Maybe the mods of this forum, or the folks at SCCA will host a NARRC specific area for you under the Northeast area that each has. It&#39;s probably less work than having DA set it up.

[Dave Zaslow]

Butch,

Make sure these town hall meetings are after the beer party (hic)

DZ

[kipv]

Why not have an input meeting during lunchtime at a number of the upcoming NARRC events? The upcoming NHIS event would also be a great time to gather input. I have raced in a number of these "championship" series and I can tell you that recognition leads to more participation. Podium celebrations (they don&#39;t need to be elaborate) and timely website points updates help a great deal. Also the very popular SARRC series learned years ago that less required events actually leads to improved participation. Just examine the demise of the ECR series and you will understand why. Both series begin with a lot of interest but as the season progresses and many of the ECR participants begin to realize that they don&#39;t have a shot at placing well in the points series they simply quit. The SARRC series only uses the best 6 of approx. 20 races. Last year numerous people in each class entered the final race with a good chance of finishing well in the series. Those who do well are generally the ones who raced the most during the season (imagine that). Also many times those who are leading the series will attend events just to prevent challengers from collecting uncontested points. Whenever a series requires participation in a specific event in order to remain relavent in a points chase they had better realize that they are by definition writing off some of the participants in the remainder of the series.

[zchris]

Why are poeple not getting out to race? Well the oil companies are holding us hostage. Then Lime Rock decided to hold us hostage. And now the NARRC committee is holding us hostige if we want NARRC points. So if I refuse to be held hostage to go to Lime Rock then the series has no meaning to me any longer. Well that was a no brainer. And whos brilliant idea was it to force LR down our throats. By the way, I do not run the NARRC series. But if I had wanted to, they sure found a way to piss me off.
Chris Howard

[gran racing]

Those are things we have less control over Chris. Yeah I know, we can consume less gas and do our parts to get oil / gas prices reduced....

Dave put together a very nice list of things to be considered. I really don&#39;t have much to offer with your group one items since I don&#39;t run a series, just look for events I&#39;d like to be a part of.

I do think it would be cool to have some different (more unusual) types of races like we&#39;ve discussed in the past, but never pushed for. Inverting some of the grid, manditory pit stop during a race, standing start; just something a bit different.

Doing the meetings during the lunch hour would be ideal if it&#39;s going to happen at the track. I do not think you&#39;d get the turnout that we&#39;d be looking for if done after the event.