Deciding if a Protest is in Order or Not

[Spinnetti]

Well, you guys are making me feel better about more substantive protests than trim items.
I've read a lot of posts here about dumb stuff, so I was getting worried about the current state of things.

I know its hard to accept when you get beat sometimes, and generally I show up with a fully prepared car, that is neat, clean, tuned, and built to the limit, yet even when my car was fairly competetive and I ran top 5 for a long time, I still had some guys who beat me by miles. But since I know I could have done better than I did, who's to say? My poor driving? Them cheating (e.g. Honda ECUs)? I guess I don't worry about it too much.

Thanks for the input...

[kthomas]

Well I've been through a lot of ARRC and SIC teardowns, and a couple mechanical protests both giving and receiving. FWIW, here's a few random thoughts.

I personally would never protest something that didn't contribute to me getting beat (and by "me" I mean the car I'm responsible for, I have no such illusions of not getting beat as a driver ). I have on many occasions let another competitor know, politely, that other people might have a problem with his washer bottle being missing for example. I consider this a courtesy, and have never gotten a negative reaction from it.

I have been protested by a competitor that was not even close to the level of prep or driving that we were at. The protest was broad, vague, poorly written, and unaccompanied by the required supporting data, but the protestor was a Region official, and the IT tech from Denver just happened to be in town that weekend. It was time for us to "go down". That protest was a personal insult because it came from a competitor that really wasn't competing, if you know what I mean. And replacement parts that were dimensionally equal to stock, but not stock (and of no competitive advantage), were found to be out of compliance. It cost us an entire season of wins and stiff penalties, even though traditionally only the race at which the protest is filed is taken away (how do you prove the race before used the same parts?). I learned then 2 things: 1. When SCCA officials are tired of you winning you will get spanked, and 2. Be above reproach when it comes to legality.

I have done a voluntary teardown with another competitor to lay to rest rumours that had been swirling about both of us. For all to see, under the Road Atlanta Tech Shed we did a heads off-bring out the calipers- teardown and invited any and all to measure and witness. I have also invited competitors to take a peek any time the head was off. However, after a long time in the class we became comfortable with the attitude that if you want to see, ante up the money. I think that was a result of not having the time or budget to be that "outwardly nice" anymore.

I have filed but a single mechanical protest, and it was successful, but it took a LOT of research and a couple seasons of racing to arrive at the decision to do it. We had done everything we could do to compete- to me that is step one. It was the same model car- step 2. Although a lot of RX-7 guys whispered about Speedsource for several years I never considered protesting them because I didn't know enough about RX-7's to know how to cheat one. A protest against them would have to come from an RX-7 guy, not me (I also think David and Sylvain knew, like we did, that there was a lot of power to be had in the handling, so to speak). My shoe was obviously a better driver than the guy I eventually protested (step 3- be realistic about the driver's contribution to the speed or lack thereof), yet we couldn't keep up. We went so far as to position people around the track to check shift points (the "Eureka!" and last straw). We built a case, figured out what were the likely the items of noncompliance, which of those were verifiable, gathered the supporting documents. In the end we probably could have chosen more things to check, but we chose 3 things that were obvious, measurable, and generally percieved (if not real) to be competive advantages.

I have had people come up to compliment us on our lap time or something or other, and you can tell what they're thinking ("How in the wide, wide world of sports can you guys be so fast wtihout cheating?). Usually a tour of our car and an insight into our development program will send them away happy and an idea of what they can do better. Openness and "club spirit" goes a long way, but sometimes you just have to get out the paper. On the recieving end I'd rather somebody come up and say, hey WTF? I wouldn't take that as an insult. I also wouldn't take as an insult somebody that prepared a good protest and wanted to see something. I have been, and would be again, insulted by a fishing expedition with no prior discussion.

[lateapex911]

Well I've been through a lot of ARRC and SIC teardowns, and a couple mechanical protests both giving and receiving. FWIW, here's a few random thoughts.

I personally would never protest something that didn't contribute to me getting beat (and by "me" I mean the car I'm responsible for, I have no such illusions of not getting beat as a driver ). I have on many occasions let another competitor know, politely, that other people might have a problem with his washer bottle being missing for example. I consider this a courtesy, and have never gotten a negative reaction from it.

I have been protested by a competitor that was not even close to the level of prep or driving that we were at. The protest was broad, vague, poorly written, and unaccompanied by the required supporting data, but the protestor was a Region official, and the IT tech from Denver just happened to be in town that weekend. It was time for us to "go down". That protest was a personal insult because it came from a competitor that really wasn't competing, if you know what I mean. And replacement parts that were dimensionally equal to stock, but not stock (and of no competitive advantage), were found to be out of compliance. It cost us an entire season of wins and stiff penalties, even though traditionally only the race at which the protest is filed is taken away (how do you prove the race before used the same parts?). I learned then 2 things: 1. When SCCA officials are tired of you winning you will get spanked, and 2. Be above reproach when it comes to legality.

I have done a voluntary teardown with another competitor to lay to rest rumours that had been swirling about both of us. For all to see, under the Road Atlanta Tech Shed we did a heads off-bring out the calipers- teardown and invited any and all to measure and witness. I have also invited competitors to take a peek any time the head was off. However, after a long time in the class we became comfortable with the attitude that if you want to see, ante up the money. I think that was a result of not having the time or budget to be that "outwardly nice" anymore.

I have filed but a single mechanical protest, and it was successful, but it took a LOT of research and a couple seasons of racing to arrive at the decision to do it. We had done everything we could do to compete- to me that is step one. It was the same model car- step 2. Although a lot of RX-7 guys whispered about Speedsource for several years I never considered protesting them because I didn't know enough about RX-7's to know how to cheat one. A protest against them would have to come from an RX-7 guy, not me (I also think David and Sylvain knew, like we did, that there was a lot of power to be had in the handling, so to speak). My shoe was obviously a better driver than the guy I eventually protested (step 3- be realistic about the driver's contribution to the speed or lack thereof), yet we couldn't keep up. We went so far as to position people around the track to check shift points (the "Eureka!" and last straw). We built a case, figured out what were the likely the items of noncompliance, which of those were verifiable, gathered the supporting documents. In the end we probably could have chosen more things to check, but we chose 3 things that were obvious, measurable, and generally percieved (if not real) to be competive advantages.

I have had people come up to compliment us on our lap time or something or other, and you can tell what they're thinking ("How in the wide, wide world of sports can you guys be so fast wtihout cheating?). Usually a tour of our car and an insight into our development program will send them away happy and an idea of what they can do better. Openness and "club spirit" goes a long way, but sometimes you just have to get out the paper. On the recieving end I'd rather somebody come up and say, hey WTF? I wouldn't take that as an insult. I also wouldn't take as an insult somebody that prepared a good protest and wanted to see something. I have been, and would be again, insulted by a fishing expedition with no prior discussion.
[/b]

Good post. Hits a lot of nails on the head. Do your research, be respectful.

[seckerich]

A friendly "discussion" will usually do the trick in most cases. When I notice a driver shifting in the wrong places or that suddenly gets real fast overnight I have a talk with them. If it does not change I will let them know that I intend to have a look at the next race to see if everything is legal. I do not take it personal if someone wants to tear me down for whatever reason. I will even let them watch if they like. If someone is cheating and beating you because of it--they are stealing all the time and money you spent to go fast legal-Period. The reluctance to tear people down just breeds the cheating because they do not think they will get caught. Just be sure to be honest with yourself as to why you are getting beat.

[Andy Bettencourt]

As was said, this post is a must read for all. Tremendous.

And replacement parts that were dimensionally equal to stock, but not stock (and of no competitive advantage), were found to be out of compliance. [/b]

That being said, maybe you could expand on this a little more. You seem to have followed the rule but still got penalized...I don't understand.

I have filed but a single mechanical protest, and it was successful, but it took a LOT of research and a couple seasons of racing to arrive at the decision to do it. We had done everything we could do to compete- to me that is step one. It was the same model car- step 2. Although a lot of RX-7 guys whispered about Speedsource for several years I never considered protesting them because I didn't know enough about RX-7's to know how to cheat one. A protest against them would have to come from an RX-7 guy, not me (I also think David and Sylvain knew, like we did, that there was a lot of power to be had in the handling, so to speak). My shoe was obviously a better driver than the guy I eventually protested (step 3- be realistic about the driver's contribution to the speed or lack thereof), yet we couldn't keep up. We went so far as to position people around the track to check shift points (the "Eureka!" and last straw). We built a case, figured out what were the likely the items of noncompliance, which of those were verifiable, gathered the supporting documents. In the end we probably could have chosen more things to check, but we chose 3 things that were obvious, measurable, and generally percieved (if not real) to be competive advantages.[/b]

Brilliantly done.

I have had people come up to compliment us on our lap time or something or other, and you can tell what they're thinking ("How in the wide, wide world of sports can you guys be so fast wtihout cheating?). Usually a tour of our car and an insight into our development program will send them away happy and an idea of what they can do better. Openness and "club spirit" goes a long way, but sometimes you just have to get out the paper. On the recieving end I'd rather somebody come up and say, hey WTF? I wouldn't take that as an insult. I also wouldn't take as an insult somebody that prepared a good protest and wanted to see something. I have been, and would be again, insulted by a fishing expedition with no prior discussion.
[/b]

If more people took the time to understand the items you mention, there would be a lot less whispering in the paddock.

This post should go into the 'white-paper'...

[Newbie]

The only thing I see in this huge mysterious process is, that there is safety in numbers. I think if there's something fishy the best way (ie safest) may be with a group of several drivers. The thing that always wories me is retaliation especially on track. I've had several things that burned my biscuit enough to protest but never did because of fear.....(call me names if you need to)
R
[/b]

Check out this clip...He said he did not spin me out on purpose, makes sense since I did not file the protest. I sure made some noise about it but another 944 driver took it into his own hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKPDBYADuh0

Steve

[kthomas]

QUOTE(kthomas @ Feb 27 2007, 12:18 PM)

"And replacement parts that were dimensionally equal to stock, but not stock (and of no competitive advantage), were found to be out of compliance. "


"That being said, maybe you could expand on this a little more. You seem to have followed the rule but still got penalized...I don't understand."


This was a Dadsun, 240Z. It uses "rocker guides" atop the valve stem to hold the rocker arm in place, commonly known as a "lash pad". The Z's for many years used a pad that was like .353 in diameter. Later L series heads used a pad about .340 in diameter (or something like that), anyway they were sloppy within the retainer. The originals were no longer available as new, and rather than use old worn ones we made some. We wanted the original diameter because the later, sloppy ones would on accasion take a leave of absense from the retainer at high rpm. Our home made lash pads were the stock diameter, stock thickness, and stock distance between the "ears" which captured the rocker. What we didn't do was go to the trouble of making a dimple on the bottom, i.e. the valve stem contact was actually recessed about .020 from the bottom surface of the lash pad. Different year lash pads had different depths of dimple, although the part number was always the same. Anyway, it was much easier to make without one at all, so we did. Weight was the same because the factory had a couple grooves beside the rocker contact that we left out (again, easier). Critical dimensions okay, but didn't look like stock. We lost that appeal.

Another thing we lost on was the the gasket matching of intake and exhaust ports on the head side. Some of the grinding exceeded the 1.0 inch allowable. It was in few places, at random, and never deeper than about 1.1 and only about 10-20% of the periphery. Obvious slip of the grinder so to speak. We conceeded that this was not in compliance but lost the appeal on the severity of the penalty. The part that pissed me off about this one was the same Denver guy who inspected this very thing at the previous SIC noted it, discounted it, and said "very nice work".

The third thing was we had the proverbial "C" cam stamp. Now if you know Datsun's you know that cams with "C" stamped on the back appeared generally in the 260Z. However, we had affidavit's from original owner 240Z drivers with "C" cams, and statements from various Nissan folks who said the letters don't mean anything anyway, Nissan cams have had about every letter of the alphabet on the back of them. We requested it be "cam doctor'd", because nowhere in any Nissan documentation is there any mention of stamps on the back of the cam. The casting number was correct, and it came from a 240Z head. They did not Cam Doctor it even though the entire head went to Denver and we lost that one too.

Of course the protestor didn't supply any documentation of what the factory lash pads or cam were supposed to be. The protest was essentially: I protest the head, and anything attached to it.

So we built another head and immediately lowered the track record at Roebling by another second.

[michael baumet]

I know first hand that there is blatent cheating in IT. I bought a "legal" ITB Golf in 2000 to go racing. I was inexperienced to say the least and knew nothing about VWs. Well my 1st weekend I fried the engine. When I started tearing it down I noticed the cam looked a little funny, it had lobes so large that the head was machined out in order to allow the lobe to pass. This was a car that had been running for years in Cen Div.

I can tell you that now that I have some miles under my belt and have a pretty good idea how these things run in legal trim, I am not beyond respectfully comfronting a competitor with my concerns or to protest if necessary.

I think one of the problems with doinig a protest is the time envolved. We all work and have lives outside racing, taking a weekend to go racing is time consuming in and of itself. I was protested for a minor contact incedent years ago a Road America, by the time it was all sorted out, it was late and I still had a long drive ahead of me. If one were to levy a mechanical protest, how much more time would be involved in that process?