IT Festival at MO

[lateapex911]

Hi Everyone,

A very productive meeting indeed. The Cincinnati Race Committee has put the I.T. Festival on the front burner for the Board Meeting set for January 19th. I can tell you we discussed several formats with much input from Butch Kummer with the ARRC being the hot topic. Butch and I have had a few lengthy e-mail discussions about class alignment and such. We are one step closer to bringing this thing to reality. The input has been reassuring. Couple of questions:

1. Pro straight start instead of pit straight?

2. Multiple sprint races with individual race winners? Or overall champs in each class after multiple races?
or a little of both?

3. Teardowns for race winners? Or just inspections with TEETH?

Keep us circled on the calendar! Aug. 10th-12th 2007,

Todd Cholmondeley
Cincinnati Race Chairman
[/b]

WOW!

Impressive!

1- Pro straight...I assume you mean starts.
2- I like Stephen Blethens idea, so I guess my answer is a little of both. A small trophy to the individual race finishers, of course!
3- I am very impressed that you mentioned this! I can't remember it being on anyones list...but hey, bring it on! But ONLY if you can get the manpower and the procedures to do it correctly. (And here's a thought, why not do a "wildcard" teardown? In other words, announce early on that of the top X% cars from each class, the 1st (and as many as you feel you want to, or have the manpower for) will automatically have it's head remeoved, and another X will be chosen either at the scrutineers discretion or at random, or not at all. The idea here is to keep things a little mysterious. I think the ARRC teardowns are GREAT...and I love the fact that they do them, and the actual teardowns, while certainly a nervous time for some, are actually pretty friendly. But, they are predictable. I wonder if that predictability can foster a method of getting around them. So feel free to shake it up a bit!
4- Not mentioned, but NO chicane! Better racing without it. Theres plenty of technical corners at Mid Ohio, no need to add another.

[Racerlinn]

Todd - great work so far!
My "vote":
Pro straight start (from way back in the pack where I'm at, I'd rather be coming out of the keyhole rather than stuck in the middle of the carousel )
I would prefer the normal race lengths each day as the folks in GLDIV will be using this event for GLDIV Champ Series points. Do a cumulative two day points to award weekend winners in each class, use poles for tie-breakers (and style points for anyone pulling a "Ruck").
I think true post-race tech on random items would be great - more than just weights. Highly intrusive tech on Saturday could be very painfull and interfere with
I've never run there without the chicane. It's been done on other weekends, so why not run with the chicane on Saturday and without on Sunday? Mix it up a bit. I think by the end of Sunday morning quals everyone can remember to go straight up to the keyhole.

[gran racing]

I wonder if that predictability can foster a method of getting around them. [/b]

Come on Jake, you don&#39;t wonder. <_< I really like your idea of a mystery items to be reviewed / torn down.

My first thought was how far should teardowns go for this event? The big plus with ARRC teardowns is that there&#39;s no urgency to put the thing back together since the event happens at the end of the season. I quickly checked the calender and noted that there&#39;s an event on the next weekend at LRP (and am sure at other tracks). If I were lucky enough to place at the event, would I then miss the next weekend&#39;s event as I attempt to figure out how things go back together? After thinking about it more, let&#39;s do this! One big item that adds validity to the ARRC is having these inspections. In order to make this a bigger event, it will be necessary to do something.

No major teardowns on Sat. though.

[Greg Amy]

Todd, thanks for the update. If you&#39;re looking for feedback:

- No preference on the place for the start. You guys know the track better than most of us, I&#39;d go with whichever is safe; if they&#39;re both safe then whichever is more fun...

- Multiple sprints is a nice idea, but it needs to be structured such that there is a clearly-defined "weekend champion". If individual race winners, then how about a points system for the champion trophy?

- The teardowns issue is a toughie. I don&#39;t think there&#39;s anyone here that would doubt my desire to have a clean car as the winner, nor anyone that can doubt my enthusiasm for a tear down. However, unlike the ARRC where I was able to tear down my car and leave it in the trailer for a while not having to deal with it (where it still is at this very moment), a tear-down in August creates logistical problems for folks continuing racing that year (possibly the following wekeend). I&#39;d suggest a series of serious non-destructive testing, designed to catch evidence of cheating, and if something suspicious is found move to tear downs. Example: use the Whistler to test for compression; if found out of spec then move to a head removal.

Waiting for August...

[tom91ita]

.....
- The teardowns issue is a toughie. I don&#39;t think there&#39;s anyone here that would doubt my desire to have a clean car as the winner, nor anyone that can doubt my enthusiasm for a tear down. However, unlike the ARRC where I was able to tear down my car and leave it in the trailer for a while not having to deal with it (where it still is at this very moment), a tear-down in August creates logistical problems for folks continuing racing that year (possibly the following wekeend). I&#39;d suggest a series of serious non-destructive testing, designed to catch evidence of cheating, and if something suspicious is found move to tear downs. Example: use the Whistler to test for compression; if found out of spec then move to a head removal.

Waiting for August...
[/b]

what he said! i have a race the very next weekend at mid-ohio! and rather than tow there and back, i was going to try and drop off the truck and trailer nearby and find another way home.

my car (except for weight) is exactly as it was after NASA Nationals where i was expecting to be torn down! but if it is highly intrusive, i can&#39;t afford the time to tow home late sunday night and reassemble the car in time by thursday night.

and then if i stay away, i get labeled as a cheater. talk about no win!

course if only the top three get the teardowns, i don&#39;t have to worry and might show up anyways!

[RSTPerformance]

As someone who came from out of region and raced at Mid Ohio...

1: Use the "pro" start but DON&#39;T use the horible starters that they always seemed to have at the SCCA RUNOFFS... Those starters were amongst the worst I have ever seen in 20+ years of watching racing. If the pack needs a waive off, then give them a waive off. More than just the first 2 rows is important.

2: Individual race winners, and overall "Champion." The 2nd race should value more points to help out those from out of region who are continualy learning the track that weekend...

3: Yes, teardowns on day 2. However not to interfear with travel and drinking (who does that anyway?) make sure that the IT races are the first races of the day before lunch. This will draw spectators, and alow ample time for teardowns. Maybe by the end of the day you could have an awards ceramony.

4: Added point... skip the keyhole, my car might like that better Actually I don&#39;t care either way, let the locals who have run both courses make the decision. Although I will admit as someone who has raced at Mid-Ohio the track does not have a lot of passing zones, especially for low powered IT cars who depend on braking zones. Any help in that area is a BIG plus to decreasing fustrations and contact from "making a passing zone." - I can just imagine running with an ITB car in the mid pack of ITS cars that ummm yeah don&#39;t handle, thats the excuse right!!! lol

Just my thoughts

Raymond

[R2 Racing]

My answers/points/words of average wisdom:

- I really don&#39;t care either way on where we start or which configuration we run. However, in all the times I&#39;ve raced at Mid Ohio, I&#39;ve never started on the backstraight so that could be fun (plus slow guys like Linn could get that warm fuzzy feeling of actually seeing the green flag for once ). The club course is a little more technical and might help the locals a bit (of which I am, so I won&#39;t vote against it), but the pro course definately creates an additional passing zone, which always makes for more exciting racing.

- I like the idea of doing multiple races with a points scoring system to determine the overall weekend winner. It&#39;ll add an extra level of planning and excitment, plus just be something kind of fun. I&#39;m against the idea of qualifying races that are meerly done to set the grid for an actual race.

- The biggest problem I see with big teardowns at Mid Ohio is the lack of a place to do it. At Road Atlanta they have an actual permanent tech building with the scales and enough room to fit everyone under a covered roof. For any of us who have torn down at the ARRC, imagine doing that in the rain or blistering sunlight. Either a tent or something would need to be set up.

- I perfectly understand everyone&#39;s point of not wanting to teardown their engines because it&#39;s the middle of the season and I kind fo feel the same. So how about this? At the ARRC, it&#39;s pretty much just engines that get checked over thoroughly, right? So how about at this event we check other things like suspension (legal camber adjusters, legal chassis stiffening, legal mounting points, etc.) or stuff like that? Just an idea. It certainly wouldn&#39;t require anyone to have to seriously teardown their cars to do, but it&#39;s probably something that&#39;s just important. Like I said, it&#39;s just an idea and I&#39;m ok if you hate it. I&#39;m just looking for a way to add to the seriousness of this event by making sure cars are legal, but not have to require the usually tough and time consuming teardowns of the ARRC.

[RacerBill]

I second Kevin&#39;s comments. I don&#39;t think they are far off all the other comments I&#39;ve read.

The idea of using the backstraight start is great. I have seen some really botched starts with large fields on the front straight.

There have been some great comments about how to enforce rules and tech. Running IT late morning and early afternoon, and use full teardown only as a last resort - check other areas of the car (washer bottles!!! just kidding

But, the weekend sounds great, can&#39;t wait, going to have to start working on the car tonight. Uh Oh, just remembered the family has tickets to Cats tonight. Guess it will have to wait till Wednesday....unless we get in early, and I can start going through my spares......

[Rabbit07]

I like back straight starts

I like no chicane

I agree with no engine tear downs. I have some considerable experience in this area (don&#39;t ask) Clever cheaters don&#39;t cheat stuff you can see. You need to look at things like suspensions, transmissions, seam welding, ect.

Example: 1st place gets head torn off and everything is teched OK. How do you know his crank isn&#39;t lightened? How do you know his rods are stock length. The list goes on and on.

[dj10]

I like back straight starts

I like no chicane

I agree with no engine tear downs. I have some considerable experience in this area (don&#39;t ask) Clever cheaters don&#39;t cheat stuff you can see. You need to look at things like suspensions, transmissions, seam welding, ect.

Example: 1st place gets head torn off and everything is teched OK. How do you know his crank isn&#39;t lightened? How do you know his rods are stock length. The list goes on and on.
[/b]

So you what about displacement checks or illegal cams? I&#39;ve heard of people running 2.0L when their only allowed a 1.8L. Are you going to let them go? For this to work there has to be some legitimancy to this event or it will be just another double regional.

[Rabbit07]

The whistler ect is good.

I agree that there should be a tech inspection, but pulling people engines apart?

There were references to this event being similar to the June Sprints. Well, I have never seen an engine torn down at the Sprints that wasn&#39;t protested. There is the normal 30 mins and some minor checks and go home.

[Edwin Ho]

I don&#39;t remember the conditions being different... But I don&#39;t remember much these days! If you look at the individual times from Sat. to Sun., you will see that some people were much faster on the PRO course and some people didn&#39;t pickup any time at all. Look at the ITA group 3. Compare each driver&#39;s times from both days and take from that what you will.
[/b]

I&#39;d say that for us (group 2), the track was better on Sun vs. Sat. Maybe the track got better as the day passed on Sat. I only looked at the fast guys since their performance is likely to be the most consistent.

Ed.

[x-ring]

So you what about displacement checks or illegal cams? I&#39;ve heard of people running 2.0L when their only allowed a 1.8L. Are you going to let them go? For this to work there has to be some legitimancy to this event or it will be just another double regional.
[/b]

No disagreement on that from me but, guys, before we start making too many plans for Sunday&#39;s impound sessions we need to get the Tech crew in on the discussion.

Full teardowns, like SM at the Runoffs, is an enormous amount of work for the Techies (ask me how I know...) and would be even more so for even the top car in each of the five GCR IT classes.

Unless you want to be there untill long after the sun goes down think carefully about what you want to look at.

[924Guy]

+1 more to Kevin&#39;s comments...

[lateapex911]

I agree that full teardowns are probably out of the question due to time, place, and manpower. But I do like the idea of any and all forms of probing, checking and otherwise digging around.

Now, that said, I hope it&#39;s not going to be Runoffs stuff like missing chuncks of tailights that get people DQ&#39;ed. But if the whistler shows two ITA Miatas (lets just use them cuz there&#39;s buckets of them, for our example) to behave exactly alike, while a third is distinctively different, then I would hope further investigation would be done.

And having it be done on a "Impound all for everything" or a "Impound 1-3, 5, 7, 9, 11, for random checks" basis means that if nobody knows what WILL happen, but they fear what MIGHT happen, they&#39;ll be less likely to show up with some obvious cheats. (And yes, there are some of those out there)

So, I hope they announce that there will be checks, and they may be invasive, and they may be for just the top runners, or maybe more....or not.

[rross]

Some questions from a member of the tech crew who will be at the event:
Would you be willing to chip in $10 per driver to a fund to reimburse those who must disassemble their engines (i.e. take the head off to measure valves, bore, stroke - fee would reimburse new head gasket)?
Would you be willing to find some of the specialized tools you&#39;re requesting (i.e. a whistler)?
What about fuel testing?
Your ideas of checking things that don&#39;t require engine disassembly are intriguing - anyone have a specific list that&#39;s applicable to all makes/models? Keep in mind that this event is in August - can be very hot, dusty, stormy.

[lateapex911]

Yes, but that brings up some math. Lets say you get: ITC-6 drivers, ITB 14, ITA 27, ITS 23, ITR 4. total: 74 drivers, x$10.00 =$740.

$740 buys more head gaskets than the tech guys want to measure, i presume. What happens to the overage?

Specialized tools: Funding, hmm...well who owns them, and what will they be used for. presumably the Region, and I&#39;d assume they&#39;d use them in the day to day life of the tech dept. So, while I probably don&#39;t really care THAT much, is it fair to have one group fund such an investment when the benefit will be spread to many others?

Fuel: ? I don&#39;t know...I am really no able to make a knowledgable call on whether the fuel tesiting is fair or effective.

All makes an models must not have improper air induction systems, like ram air, holes cut in firewalls/unibody sections for cold air inlets (common), cars must not be too low, their air dams must meet proper measurements, wheels must fit bodywork (tread tests), batteries must be in correct place and correct size, wipers must be on, heater cores installed, and thats just stuff I&#39;ve notice walking thru open impounds....

[RSTPerformance]

$10 is fine, however if you have a top notch effort that can get you in the front you can probably afford a new head gasket on your own. It is the time that is hard to find. When we went to the ARRC we built that into the upfront cost. Also do you refund even if the person is illigal? If you answer no, then why not if it was a lightened crank, not an illigal gasket?

Lets not even get into fuel testing... For the record I vote AGAINST it.

Raymond "93 octane pump gas baby" Blethen

[dj10]

Yes, but that brings up some math. Lets say you get: ITC-6 drivers, ITB 14, ITA 27, ITS 23, ITR 4. total: 74 drivers, x$10.00 =$740.

$740 buys more head gaskets than the tech guys want to measure, i presume. What happens to the overage?

Specialized tools: Funding, hmm...well who owns them, and what will they be used for. presumably the Region, and I&#39;d assume they&#39;d use them in the day to day life of the tech dept. So, while I probably don&#39;t really care THAT much, is it fair to have one group fund such an investment when the benefit will be spread to many others?

Fuel: ? I don&#39;t know...I am really no able to make a knowledgable call on whether the fuel tesiting is fair or effective.

All makes an models must not have improper air induction systems, like ram air, holes cut in firewalls/unibody sections for cold air inlets (common), cars must not be too low, their air dams must meet proper measurements, wheels must fit bodywork (tread tests), batteries must be in correct place and correct size, wipers must be on, heater cores installed, and thats just stuff I&#39;ve notice walking thru open impounds....
[/b]

The big thing with me is "displacement checks and possible porting of rotarys"

[lateapex911]

The big thing with me is "displacement checks and possible porting of rotarys"



[/b]

Displacement on a rotary? Easy...measure the rotor housing. Done from the outside. Porting? Write it up. Post the bond, and require that Topeka procure a stock example for comparision.They can procure one before the event, but it MUST be done by a third party, and as you wouldn&#39;t be informing the protestee of the protest, the third party must be the officials. To my knowledge, adn I am assuming that you are talking about ITS rotaries, there is no template available to an SCCA scrutineer to make the judgement on the 13B ports.

(Atlanta region has a go/no go guage they use on the 12A exhaust ports, but again, nothing exists to my knowledge for the 12A intakes)