October Fastrack is up

[JoshS]

Travis, conversely you can not expect the entire club to make policy based on the divisions with low car counts. The regional national thing is the norm in Middiv and Sw Div probably because there are not enough racer to support a straight up National. In Nediv, CenDiv, SeDv this is not the case and I do not think it is so on the west coast either, but it has been a while since I have been to a race out there.
[/b]

Here in NPDiv, this year we had 7 National races. 4 of those were at 2 double national weekends, the other 3 were at regional/national weekends.

In the California SPDiv races, I ran two National races this year, one of which was a regional/national and the other was a single national. I skipped an SPDiv double national at Buttonwillow. There were other SPDiv nationals in Arizona but I'm not sure of the makeup of those. I think at least one of them was a double national.

So, there are definitely a decent number of single national and double nationals on the west coast. There are also a handful of regional/nationals.

[Bill Miller]

not true everywhere. we have regional/national weekends in MiDiv, and pretty much all the SM guys running nationals on sunday run the regional on saturday as well. i think 4 of the top 5 regional pts finishers are going to the runoffs in SM. if IT went national, i don't see how it'd be any different here. so you would be competing against national caliber drivers and cars even when you stick to regionals, thus to maintain your position in regionals that you had before you must up your budget.

i don't know if that's the way it is everywhere, or anywhere else.....but that's why i keep encouraging everyone to step outside of their little sandbox and make a decision that's best for IT/club across the whole country, not just the atlantic coast. if MiDiv is the only division that would be adversely affected by going national, then by all means, go national. we'll just have to react accordingly in our own best interests.
[/b]

And how many of the other National-eligible cars run the Regional? And pointing to SM is not really valid. It's a spec class, and there is a whole host of issues around that, as to why the costs have escalated so much. Couple that w/ the fact that the cars are pretty much bullet proof, and you've got an opportunity for more seat time. Or, another way to look at it, is that the National guys are already there, and it gives them a test day to work on development of the car and the driver.

I decided to run with EMRA (a smaller club in the N.E.) because I was attracted to the fact that people new to the sport could run and be competitive on a modest budget. SCCA is not the only option for people to race with. [/b]

Dave,

I started racing w/ EMRA as well. Great group of people, lots of fun, not a whole lot of travel, but you've just reinforced what I, Andy, Jake, and a couple of others have been saying. People like being competitive w/ less than full-tilt cars. You're right, SCCA is not the only option, but I think it's safe to say that it does provide the highest level of competition.

[tnord]

And how many of the other National-eligible cars run the Regional?
[/b]

not sure, i don't really pay attention. i'll grant you it's a lower % than the x-over from SM.

And pointing to SM is not really valid. It's a spec class, and there is a whole host of issues around that, as to why the costs have escalated so much.
[/b]

i'm not talking about costs, merely saying that if IT goes national you'll have plenty of national guys running regional races because of the format in MiDiv.

Couple that w/ the fact that the cars are pretty much bullet proof, and you've got an opportunity for more seat time. Or, another way to look at it, is that the National guys are already there, and it gives them a test day to work on development of the car and the driver.
[/b]

which i think is the same in IT. i don't see IT engines as hand grenades like the GT stuff. i don' t think there's really enough allowance in the IT rules to create such a situation (which is the way it should be). the IT guys are already there, the cars should be fractionally less reliable than the SM's, and it gives IT drivers the same chance to test and develop as it does the SM guys.

[Bill Miller]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Travis.

If you don't see much x-over from the other National classes, why would you expect IT to increase? How much x-over do you see from the SS and T cars? That's as valid a comparrison as the SM x-over (if not moreso)

[tnord]

xover from T1? not much.
xover from T2/T3? i don't pay attention much, but i think most of them run both national/regional.
xover from SS? i don't think we really have any in this division.

why is a comparison to SS/T more relative than a comparison to SM? the ruleset is closer to SM than it is to SS or T. spec miata isn't even close to a spec series btw....

[Bill Miller]

xover from T1? not much.
xover from T2/T3? i don't pay attention much, but i think most of them run both national/regional.
xover from SS? i don't think we really have any in this division.

why is a comparison to SS/T more relative than a comparison to SM? the ruleset is closer to SM than it is to SS or T. spec miata isn't even close to a spec series btw....
[/b]

Then I guess they need to change the name. :P

[gran racing]

People like being competitive w/ less than full-tilt cars. [/b]

Yeah, I typed that too quickly or at least didn't type what I was trying to say. I will agree that people do like being competitive in less than full-tilt cars. Then again, what is a full tilt car? It's all relative and based upon perceptions. What I think of full tilt is different than a top IT builder, which is different than what a Champ Car or F1 team would even consider remotely a full tilt car. I'd like the perception of a full tilt car not to be mucho bucks, at least in C, B & A.

Basically what I was trying to get at in that post was not that a new person should not expect to be competive when new, but when they gain some experience and get their cars prepped decently it would be nice if they are not waaaaay behind everyone else still. Essentially if the Serra preped cars are the norm in IT, it sure makes it much more intimidating to get into IT racing. Although the rules would allow much less of a preped car, I would have run in a different series.

[Bill Miller]

Yeah, I typed that too quickly or at least didn't type what I was trying to say. I will agree that people do like being competitive in less than full-tilt cars. Then again, what is a full tilt car? It's all relative and based upon perceptions. What I think of full tilt is different than a top IT builder, which is different than what a Champ Car or F1 team would even consider remotely a full tilt car. I'd like the perception of a full tilt car not to be mucho bucks, at least in C, B & A.

Basically what I was trying to get at in that post was not that a new person should not expect to be competive when new, but when they gain some experience and get their cars prepped decently it would be nice if they are not waaaaay behind everyone else still. Essentially if the Serra preped cars are the norm in IT, it sure makes it much more intimidating to get into IT racing. Although the rules would allow much less of a preped car, I would have run in a different series.
[/b]

Dave,

What a full-tilt car is, is not relative. It's a car that's built and developed to take maximum advantage of the rules. There are probably more $$$ in dyno time and testing, than there are in hard parts. And it doesn't matter what a full-tilt car is to a Champ Car or F1 team, we're talking about IT here. And you used to race in ITA in the NE, Serra prepped cars pretty much are the norm, at the front of the grid. While Anthony didn't build Greg's or Andy's cars, don't think that their prep level is any less.

And there's nothing really hidden or magic about it. It's all pretty much out there for everybody to see. You need to develop the car, and the driver, if you want to be competitive. Some cars will never be competitive, no matter how much $$$ you throw at them, regardless of who's behind the wheel. If you want to run up front, what it takes is out there for everyone to see. It's up to each individual to determine how committed they are to getting there.

I love racing because it's exciting and I have a good time w/ my friends. Winning is great, but I'd rather finish mid-pack, and have a close race w/ somebody the whole time, than go out and win by a lap.

When I first got into racing my ITB Rabbit GTI, Dave Ebersole (ITB 2002) and I used to have some fantastic races. We were both mid-pack cars, but we had a blast racing w/ each other. To me, that's what it's about.

[gran racing]

Serra prepped cars pretty much are the norm, at the front of the grid.[/b]

And yes, there are several other top notch built cars out there, its not just a spec serra class. (My engine is actually at Matt Kessler's shop now - the guy who takes care of Greg's baby.)

At the front, problem. The fear is these cars will also be the ones running (with a good driver) towards the back of the pack and become the norm if the class is made national.

[lateapex911]

I'm not sure I buy that. I keep pointing to Prod as a comparision, because Prod is like IT (production based) but so UNlike IT.

I think if IT were National, you'd see less of Serra and Greg et al at Regionals, because they'd be going National.

But it is the prep level and the ruleset that makes IT the place so many want to be. Lots of people look at Prod and say, "No thanks...a ton of work, and I'll be mid pack against THOSE guys with their billet cranks! Sheesh! I'll go be mid pack in IT! There are more racers, less dicking with the car, less $ to because of the less dicking with the car, and more fun beacuse of that"

Because of the two tiered system, guys like that can still race regionals, and honestly, I bet they might have better finishing positions!

(The downside to me is personal...I'd have to go to more races to see all my friends)

To me, being national has a few major advantages:

• Because of the two tiered system, those who want to go big, can, and those who want to stay casual can as well.

• The club NEEDS IT in the main picture....IT will attract more newbies than 90% of the rest of the categories. We need to market the club better, and IT is a great way to do it.

• I think member retention would be better. The next step from IT is Prod, but so many are loath to take that plunge into the snakepit of rules instability and turfprotectionism, that they start to look elsewhere...like NASA.

[tnord]

i asked this question a while back in this thread or another, i don't remember, but i didn't get any responses and i think it's worth asking again.

what is best for the health of IT? national or regional? is one regional class with 15 participants or one national with 10 entrants and one regional with 7 entrants better for the class?

what is best for the health of the club as a whole? mainly, which scenario will draw in NET ADD drivers?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Sorry Andy, but that's not true. You CAN build a SM for less than $8K. Will it be towards the pointy end? No. But with a decent driver, it can be mid-pack. There's no need to start a poll if people think it is possible or not. People have done it and it's simply a fact, not an opinion. Remember, not everyone builds a car to your standards and sees the same "this part needs to be replaced" the way you might.

[/b]

Dave wrote the above but with respect to Bill, there is no running 1.6 with a hardtop worth a pile of crap for sale in the past few years for $1K. In going through the numbers, you would have to make a TON of unsafe (or unwise) assumptions about your donor car (especially at $2500 with a hardtop) in order to come in under $8K. Things like ball joints, clutch, pressure plate etc would have to go unchanged. NOT a wise move in a racecar. Remember, in SM, you have to buy most of the parts up front just to be legal. In IT, you can at least do a slow build and still be legal. Competitive is another topic.

[Speed Raycer]

And how many of the other National-eligible cars run the Regional? [/b]

[T&S Chief hat on] I can't speak for the other tracks in MiDiv, but at Gateway, we see quite a few National guys running the regional days. Most of the National guys that do run on Saturday are MiDiv guys, not so much the out of Division guys which I always thought was odd, but maybe we're the oddballs
[/T&S]

[Greg Amy]

...a caveat to Scott's post, since I'm an old SoWDiv/MidDiv guy: a lot (all?) of the National race weekends were (are?) Regional/National combined, where the Regional was (is?) run on Saturday and the National on Sunday. If you were planning on doing the Natl, there was very littel reason not to enter the Regl.

Up here in NeDiv, National and Regional weekends are discrete; that is, never the twain shall meet. For a National-centric guy to run Regionals requires digging out the checkbook and equipment for a whole 'nother weekend.

Greg, 1990 MidDiv SSA champ...

[JoshS]

...a caveat to Scott's post, since I'm an old SoWDiv/MidDiv guy: a lot (all?) of the National race weekends were (are?) Regional/National combined, where the Regional was (is?) run on Saturday and the National on Sunday. If you were planning on doing the Natl, there was very littel reason not to enter the Regl.
[/b]

Here in NorPac, at our occasional regional/national weekends, the national is usually Saturday and the regional Sunday. I didn't run a single regional race ... made more sense to pack up and go home after the national, rather than sticking around another day. Occasionally people I know would ENTER the regional just to get additional track time during those regional practice and qualifying sessions, as those would sometimes occur before the national race. But very few stuck around for the regional race itself.

But even if the regional were before the national, I probably wouldn't have run them, just for fear of damaging the car before the race that really mattered.

[tnord]

still run the same way greg. only exception being nationals at topeka are all by themself because you can't make the logistics work by adding regional only classes in addition to the 200+ national entries.

i think nationals are run on sunday to make it easier on people traveling long distances for the race. a lot/some of people use the regional on suday as a "test day." they'll start from the back, run 1/2 the race to make sure everything works, then pull in.

[Bill Miller]

Dave wrote the above but with respect to Bill, there is no running 1.6 with a hardtop worth a pile of crap for sale in the past few years for $1K. In going through the numbers, you would have to make a TON of unsafe (or unwise) assumptions about your donor car (especially at $2500 with a hardtop) in order to come in under $8K. Things like ball joints, clutch, pressure plate etc would have to go unchanged. NOT a wise move in a racecar. Remember, in SM, you have to buy most of the parts up front just to be legal. In IT, you can at least do a slow build and still be legal. Competitive is another topic.
[/b]

Andy,

What I cited was an anecdotal case. I could have purchase a complete, running 1.6 car w/ a hardtop for $1200. It's my understanding that that's what hardtops are going for these days. So, I should have bought the car and flipped it for $2500. The point I was making, is that it's possible to build a car for not a huge pile of $$. Won't be a front-runner, but it will get you out there.