A word from the CRB on the recent changes...

[dj10]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Jan 24 2006, 04:12 PM
DJ, your argument does not hold water....explain how the Motec gets a bigger advantage and please no BS, data only..I have been sharing real world info please do the same.

[snapback]71940[/snapback]

I've seen motec's that are PROGRAMABLE every 100 rpm throughout the entire rpm range.
To me this is just common sense. Talk to an engineer I bet he concurs. You never addressed the money issue, or doesn't that matter?

[Doc Bro]

[quote]
You never addressed the money issue, or doesn't that matter?

[snapback]71945[/snapback]

I'll field that one. How many more heat cycles will you get on Hoosiers carrying around 300 less pounds per lap? How about brakes? How about race fuel at 6.00 per gallon? That was your alternative- going up 300 lbs. Besides, I race a BMW....you tell ME what 400 bucks gets you for the marque.....not much.

The old addage applies....you can pay me now... or pay me later!

R

[snk328is]

$400 will almost buy me a new set of tires for the whole season.

I race on Toyo RA-1's. I use Cobalt Spec VR's which lasts and lasts and lasts.

I spent less than $3.00/gallon on premium 93 octane fuel.

You seem to be implying that all BMW racers have money growing trees in their backyards.

You tell ME what $400 will get for any racer of any marque that is determined to win at all costs? BMW or not, the answer is not much. But for the budget racer, it can get oh so much.

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Jan 24 2006, 04:44 PM
I'll field that one. How many more heat cycles will you get on Hoosiers carrying around 300 less pounds per lap? How about brakes? How about race fuel at 6.00 per gallon? That was your alternative- going up 300 lbs. Besides, I race a BMW....you tell ME what 400 bucks gets you for the marque.....not much.

The old addage applies....you can pay me now... or pay me later!

R

[snapback]71947[/snapback]

[dj10]

[quote]

You never addressed the money issue, or doesn't that matter?

[snapback]71945[/snapback]

I'll field that one. How many more heat cycles will you get on Hoosiers carrying around 300 less pounds per lap? How about brakes? How about race fuel at 6.00 per gallon? That was your alternative- going up 300 lbs. Besides, I race a BMW....you tell ME what 400 bucks gets you for the marque.....not much.

The old addage applies....you can pay me now... or pay me later!

R

[snapback]71947[/snapback]

We spend thousands trying to make the cars go faster and I HATE to spend money to make a car go SLOWER when there is nothing in the world wrong with the cars the way they are! A Quote form James Clay, "GIVE YOURSELF THE GIFT OF SLOW" Like I said NASA is looking better and better!

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by dj10@Jan 24 2006, 02:32 PM
I've seen motec's that are PROGRAMABLE every 100 rpm throughout the entire rpm range.
To me this is just common sense. Talk to an engineer I bet he concurs. You never addressed the money issue, or doesn't that matter?

[snapback]71945[/snapback]

Being a person that is well versed in programable FI I will saay this. The difference between the haves and have not's will not be changed a great deal from where we are today under the restriction point. Motec still will have the same advantage it has now. Once the restriction kicks in the Motec will see greater losses due to bigger gains that a chipped ECU. Now as far as the money goes. I searched under your name and I don't think I can find one post by you saying you were concerned about how much money the other marques are having to spend in development and general money just to be on the same track with the given overdog. A budget guy like yourself maybe able to run toyo's for 6 races where a Z car is buying new goodyears every weekend to try to keep up. Please don't cry to me over 400 bucks like it will end your carreer because if thats the case you may want to be looking into ITC as it is a little more affordable. I do have a little sympothy(sp?) over the 45 dollar flat plat restrictor that these cars had to buy last year because I would have gone straight to the SIR then. This is a good thing and in the end you will be better off for it especially if a budget is your biggest concern.

Keep this in mind: This thing will cause little to no effect under the restriction point. Your changes in mapping will be little to NONE...Think of it as flat running out of air at the top but having an ample supply all the till you get there.

[dj10]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Jan 24 2006, 04:54 PM
Being a person that is well versed in programable FI I will saay this. The difference between the haves and have not's will not be changed a great deal from where we are today under the restriction point. Motec still will have the same advantage it has now. Once the restriction kicks in the Motec will see greater losses due to bigger gains that a chipped ECU. Now as far as the money goes. I searched under your name and I don't think I can find one post by you saying you were concerned about how much money the other marques are having to spend in development and general money just to be on the same track with the given overdog. A budget guy like yourself maybe able to run toyo's for 6 races where a Z car is buying new goodyears every weekend to try to keep up. Please don't cry to me over 400 bucks like it will end your carreer because if thats the case you may want to be looking into ITC as it is a little more affordable. I do have a little sympothy(sp?) over the 45 dollar flat plat restrictor that these cars had to buy last year because I would have gone straight to the SIR then. This is a good thing and in the end you will be better off for it especially if a budget is your biggest concern.

Keep this in mind: This thing will cause little to no effect under the restriction point. Your changes in mapping will be little to NONE...Think of it as flat running out of air at the top but having an ample supply all the till you get there.

[snapback]71953[/snapback]

#1. Don't tell me I only spent 45 on a restrictor plate, when in fact you don't know what I paid because I didn't tell you, and it was a lot more than that.
#2. Don't assume that I run Toyo's when in fact you don't know what I run.
#3. You maybe well versed in programmable FI but in fact you can't accurately predict the advantage on motec of a ecu car with out actual side by side dyno testing.
#4. I'm better off fiancially than some and not as good as some. I do and try and speak for the less fortunate to try and keep the playing field equal for all concerned. This is trophy racing if you forgot.
#5 I guess you run on the west coast, but where I run the cars can be pretty damn even. So why change anything!
#6. DON'T PATRONIZE! It's not very becomming.
#7 Sympathy is between shit and syphilis in the dictionary.

[seckerich]

Originally posted by dj10@Jan 24 2006, 04:01 PM
#1. Don't tell me I only spent 45 on a restrictor plate, when in fact you don't know what I paid because I didn't tell you, and it was a lot more than that.
#2. Don't assume that I run Toyo's when in fact you don't know what I run.
#3. You maybe well versed in programmable FI but in fact you can't accurately predict the advantage on motec of a ecu car with out actual side by side dyno testing.
#4. I'm better off fiancially than some and not as good as some. I do and try and speak for the less fortunate to try and keep the playing field equal for all concerned. This is trophy racing if you forgot.
#5 I guess you run on the west coast, but where I run the cars can be pretty damn even. So why change anything!
#6. DON'T PATRONIZE! It's not very becomming.
#7 Sympathy is between shit and syphilis in the dictionary.

[snapback]71955[/snapback]

If you are looking for sympathy--look elsewhere. I have had to run against the fastest BMW's in the country the last 4 years and I have spent $10,000 + to just see them at the end of the straights. If the cars I'm talking about are not good examples (York, Whittel, Bimmerworld) or you think they were cheating and screwed the rest of the BMW crowd--YOU should have protested them. If you want to piss about a restrictor that might actually do something--consider it a gift. You should be a lot heavier and have to spend what I have to get to the front. Weight would have brought the tire wear, and corner speed in line with the power and TORQUE that car is capable of. Your car has great brakes, battery in rear with great weight balance, same gear spreads as most good ITS cars, and a torque band that is flat as a table-all with a power to weight ratio better than any other car classed in IT--sucks to be you.

[dj10]

Originally posted by seckerich@Jan 24 2006, 06:10 PM
If you are looking for sympathy--look elsewhere. I have had to run against the fastest BMW's in the country the last 4 years and I have spent $10,000 + to just see them at the end of the straights. If the cars I'm talking about are not good examples (York, Whittel, Bimmerworld) or you think they were cheating and screwed the rest of the BMW crowd--YOU should have protested them. If you want to piss about a restrictor that might actually do something--consider it a gift. You should be a lot heavier and have to spend what I have to get to the front. Weight would have brought the tire wear, and corner speed in line with the power and TORQUE that car is capable of. Your car has great brakes, battery in rear with great weight balance, same gear spreads as most good ITS cars, and a torque band that is flat as a table-all with a power to weight ratio better than any other car classed in IT--sucks to be you.

[snapback]71963[/snapback]

Hey, I love my BMW, it's not for sale. I didn't start racing again to go slower.
They were beating you, not me for the last 4 yrs. why didn't you protest them if you think they are cheating? Better yet spend 50K and buy Whittel's car and see if you get the engine he has been running.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by dj10@Jan 24 2006, 03:01 PM
#1. Don't tell me I only spent 45 on a restrictor plate, when in fact you don't know what I paid because I didn't tell you, and it was a lot more than that.
#2. Don't assume that I run Toyo's when in fact you don't know what I run.
#3. You maybe well versed in programmable FI but in fact you can't accurately predict the advantage on motec of a ecu car with out actual side by side dyno testing.
#4. I'm better off fiancially than some and not as good as some. I do and try and speak for the less fortunate to try and keep the playing field equal for all concerned. This is trophy racing if you forgot.
#5 I guess you run on the west coast, but where I run the cars can be pretty damn even. So why change anything!
#6. DON'T PATRONIZE! It's not very becomming.
#7 Sympathy is between shit and syphilis in the dictionary.

[snapback]71955[/snapback]

DJ, The restrictors were on E-bay for 45 bucks if you paid more than that it your problem not mine. I know what they could have been built for.

As far as toyos go I never said you ran on them I said guys that wanted to could but to keep up the Z's have had to run new goodyears every weekend.

I personally don't care how much money you have when cost becomes your primary whine then one assumes (with good reason)you are either a serious budget racer. I guess I should assume and I don't believe I did since you refered to yourself as a budget racer.

The west coast is no different than anywhere else a well prepped car with a marginal driver can beat Z's and RX7's all day long. A well prepped E36 that is well driven will dominate anyplace anytime. A marginally prepped and moarginally driven E36 will put on a good show with a Z or RX7 any where in the country. SO you be the judge is the car over classed (I think so)

No intent to patronize so sorry if you took it that way.

As far as sympathy goes if I offered it it was only cause you sounded like it was what you were looking for.

I can tell you I have dynoed the 240sx with OE wolf and toptech programs and I have dynoed the sme car with an AEM which I think is miles above the motec. I did these same day and the results were impressive on the top end. Which BTW is where the SIR will have most effect. The results across the middle were alittle closer with the Average HP and torque being better on the AEM.

My point is you already have this issue today with the Motec equipted E36's out there now. This issue will not change in the middle just because of the SIR. What will happen is you will be more likely to run a motec car down when it stop breathing. If your car makes less HP than the SIR regulates to then your car will be completely blind to it. I am not the bad guy here. I am offering up the information I have researched and had first hand.

As far as information goes you still did not offer up your Dyno sheets to see if you will even be effected by the SIR once in place.

[seckerich]

Originally posted by dj10@Jan 24 2006, 05:28 PM
Hey, I love my BMW, it's not for sale. I didn't start racing again to go slower.
They were beating you, not me for the last 4 yrs. why didn't you protest them if you think they are cheating? Better yet spend 50K and buy Whittel's car and see if you get the engine he has been running.

[snapback]71965[/snapback]

I did--but thats another story. :angry: Decided to do my own development and hope the comp board finally saw the light. But don't worry--the coolaid makers are spinning the dyno now to make up any losses. I would be watching a few Z cars from Atlanta that will rise from the dead with the weight break they got.

[steve s]

so when will these SIR go into effect???? for the e 36? need time for R&D .to be legal.

[dj10]

[quote]
I did--but thats another story. :angry:

What happened? I need to know send pvt if want. hehe
sirs go into effect 2/1/06

[dspillrat]

Originally posted by seckerich@Jan 25 2006, 01:54 AM
I did--but thats another story. :angry: Decided to do my own development and hope the comp board finally saw the light. But don't worry--the coolaid makers are spinning the dyno now to make up any losses. I would be watching a few Z cars from Atlanta that will rise from the dead with the weight break they got.

[snapback]71984[/snapback]

The 280z,zx,&300 got quite a gift....Where did the red or tiger striped 300zx go from the southeast?.

If these SIRs truly limit HP to 220 crank....it should be a whole new ball game this year. Guess we'll all get to see if 240-250 HP was exageration or not. Torque is a different story...

Looking forward to this coming year!!!!

David Spillman
red 240z ,,,Haulassasorous
Southeast

[turboICE]

Originally posted by dj10@Jan 24 2006, 05:07 PM
next thing, I'll have to have a HANS thats another $800.00!
Enough is enough! NASA is looking better and better

[snapback]71939[/snapback]

You can't run to NASA if you don't want the investment in safety items - NASA will have the same SFI H&N restraint rule as all the sanctioning bodies likely will by the end of 2006 - probably within months if not weeks of BMWCCA and SCCA.

Still wondering if this will get SFI approval by then: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29674

[mlytle]

Originally posted by turboICE@Jan 26 2006, 10:05 PM
You can't run to NASA if you don't want the investment in safety items - NASA will have the same SFI H&N restraint rule as all the sanctioning bodies likely will by the end of 2006 - probably within months if not weeks of BMWCCA and SCCA.

Still wondering if this will get SFI approval by then: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29674

[snapback]72389[/snapback]

bmwcca already has it....

[gpeluso]

guys I'm confused.........................after the arrc this year I thought the E36 nonsense would end. The BMW and RX7 were practically bumping doors. This race showed that the cars are very competitve. Second, RX7's have won ITS races this year above all ITS cars including BMW"S and Z's . RX7's this year have posted track records this year.(ex. NELSON LEDGES). I had an RX7 and no have a BMW. My take on the differences between the two cars is this. The BMW is a great car out of the box, you can have a competive car with a stock motor. An RX7 on the other hand is a pain in the ass if you don't have a clue on what brakes you need from what model,what to remove from the engine(ex. air pump), which correct fifth gears to have, which hood to have from certain model. The rotary itself can be a nightmare getting the most out of it. It takes too much R&D. So the real problem is RX7 people are pissed because BMW guys may not have switch things from model to model, BMW just made a good all around car. However, a fully prepped RX7 is can beat a fully prepped BMW. What's crazy is BMW guys don't know what to look for on an RX7 to tell if it's leagal and RX7 guys don't know what to look for on BMW's.
For the guy complaining about spending $10,000 over four years to be a RX7 front runner is funny. I wish I only had to spend $2500 a year to keep my BMW moving faster. I just did an engine and spent $7,000 and now I'm going to upgrade the suspension. "2006 THE YEAR OF THE RX7"

greg

:119:

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Jan 24 2006, 09:08 PM
DJ, The restrictors were on E-bay for 45 bucks if you paid more than that it your problem not mine. I know what they could have been built for.

As far as toyos go I never said you ran on them I said guys that wanted to could but to keep up the Z's have had to run new goodyears every weekend.

I personally don't care how much money you have when cost becomes your primary whine then one assumes (with good reason)you are either a serious budget racer. I guess I should assume and I don't believe I did since you refered to yourself as a budget racer.

The west coast is no different than anywhere else a well prepped car with a marginal driver can beat Z's and RX7's all day long. A well prepped E36 that is well driven will dominate anyplace anytime. A marginally prepped and moarginally driven E36 will put on a good show with a Z or RX7 any where in the country. SO you be the judge is the car over classed (I think so)

No intent to patronize so sorry if you took it that way.

As far as sympathy goes if I offered it it was only cause you sounded like it was what you were looking for.

I can tell you I have dynoed the 240sx with OE wolf and toptech programs and I have dynoed the sme car with an AEM which I think is miles above the motec. I did these same day and the results were impressive on the top end. Which BTW is where the SIR will have most effect. The results across the middle were alittle closer with the Average HP and torque being better on the AEM.

My point is you already have this issue today with the Motec equipted E36's out there now. This issue will not change in the middle just because of the SIR. What will happen is you will be more likely to run a motec car down when it stop breathing. If your car makes less HP than the SIR regulates to then your car will be completely blind to it. I am not the bad guy here. I am offering up the information I have researched and had first hand.

As far as information goes you still did not offer up your Dyno sheets to see if you will even be effected by the SIR once in place.

[snapback]71975[/snapback]

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by gpeluso@Jan 26 2006, 08:57 PM
you can have a competive car with a stock motor.
greg

:119:

[snapback]72444[/snapback]

And it's the only ITS car that can...Now you know why your getting the restrictor.

On a side note somebody should let the guy on E-bay know his business plans have be altered... E-bay restrictor

[lateapex911]

Greg, I don't want to go down the "results" road too seriously, but....

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the RX-7 that set the record at Nelson, (and won races there and elsewhere) the very same RX-7 that was so strong at the ARRCs?

Tell, me, does anyone know, if that one car that is dominant over all the other 7s is legal?? I'm not saying it isn't, but when ONE car of a marque is so successful, it does need to be considered.

And that is just one of the issues with using results as a benchmark.

I will say this though. The E36 can be very strong...an overdog... when built to the 9s. James Clay himself, (Has to be 2 years ago at this point) said so himself in these very forums. And the issue has been that the car is very stout torquewise, and then backs it up with big top end power. The walk away on the straights kind of power. Weight would have it cornering slower, braking sooner, and pulling off corners more slowly. The SIR really only addresses the top end issue.

I think you are arguing whether there is a problem, and I don't think that one specific car is enough to make a case, especially when the raw physical numbers say otherwise.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by gpeluso@Jan 26 2006, 10:57 PM
The BMW is a great car out of the box, you can have a competive car with a stock motor.

greg

[snapback]72444[/snapback]

Do you have any idea what you said here?

You tell me what you would rather have:

1. Weight at 2850 and a max hp number that fits the class
2. Weight at 3100-3150 and an unrestricted motor?

#1 is calculated backward using the same process everyone else ran through.
#2 is calculated forward using the same process everyone else ran through.

BMW guys are bitching about being the only car that is 'restricted' in anyway while we preach on and on about the 'same for all'...I submit they want #2.

MAKE IT SO.

AB

[gpeluso]

:119:

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Jan 27 2006, 12:19 AM


Do you have any idea what you said here?

You tell me what you would rather have:

1. Weight at 2850 and a max hp number that fits the class
2. Weight at 3100-3150 and an unrestricted motor?

#1 is calculated backward using the same process everyone else ran through.
#2 is calculated forward using the same process everyone else ran through.

BMW guys are bitching about being the only car that is 'restricted' in anyway while we preach on and on about the 'same for all'...I submit they want #2.

MAKE IT SO.


Andy,
I am not saying that. What I'm saying is that a stock BMW engine isn't that much different than a BMW ITS engine, However a RX7 stock engine with all the crap on it s so much slower than an RX7 engine that has been prepped for ITS. A new guy can buy a BMW and not worry that he does,t live near Florida or one of the other areas where the RX7 gods live. Andy do you personally run a RX7 or any car in ITS? Hey, I wanted to run an RX7 but there was no support in my area, I lost my ass on my RX7. I would not recommend a newbie to build a second gen, due to the difficulty.

Greg

AB

[snapback]72450[/snapback]