Rules Creep..

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by Renaultfool@Dec 22 2005, 07:06 AM
"Hey Joe, where you going with that gun in your hand". Recorded by many bands in the 60's. Music Machine, Jimi Hendrix, Vanilla Fudge to name a few. Maybe if I could program some Jimi into my ECU it would help!

Do the folks on this thread really think that going back to allowing modification to the stock computer is the answer. You will still have the "haves" and the "have nots" because some ECUs are easy (cheap) to modify and some are not.
As the cars become more sophisticated we will be less able to do it ourselves, therefore encouraging high priced aftermarket parts for the cars that are popular enough for some company to engineer them. The rest of the fringe cars and/or less funded drivers, will be where they are now, running at the back.

Allowing a total replacement ECU such as the Motec (around $1,000) or the MegaSquirt (around $250) and many others that may be out there is a rather simple way to level the playing field for those who chose to buy in. The cost will probably turn out to be cheaper than trying to build a ship in a bottle, modifing the stock one as it were. It would allow everyone with an ECU to be on a level playing field. No, I do not have one. Stock Renix for me!

To keep things equal, if that is what we are going for, I just looked up some prices on the net. A race prep modified 32/36 Weber Carb is $625 from Pegasus and a race prep modified distributer for a CRX is $590 from King. So give me the race Weber and a race distributer, both of which are legal for some cars now and the total is $1,215. Oh wait, that is about what the Motec costs. So I guess it isn't about cost then.

Is it about adjustment? A clever lad can adjust their Weber across the entire rev range. Those who don't have the skills and knowledge to do so probably don't have the skills and knowledge to adjust their ECU either.

If you are trying to equal the performance in the ECU cars the only way to do it is to allow the aftermarket ECU, otherwise some will be able to get rid of speed controls, limp home modes and the like and some won't, so "factory stock" if you could police, it just won't work. Also, some will have access to modified chips, (find one for a Renix) some won't. We will still be where we are now, with an unlevel playing field.

To make the carb cars equal to the ECU/Injected cars is more difficult. They probably will never be equal. SCCA should just class them to the most appropriate group. How long can one expect 30+ year old technology to remain competitive anyway? Maybe give them a Motec and a throttle body the same size as their current induction on their stock manifold and have at it. Whatever, two valves will never equal 4 or 5. One cam will never equal two with variable cam timing, and on and on. It will never be equal.

It seems to me that most of the arguments against controlled progress are not well founded, looking at todays technology, and may be presented to maintain the status quo for particular cars that have an advantage now.
We need to look ahead, not behind.
Carl

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I think you have been misinformed. Motec is more than 1K to cram into a stock ECU box AND takes hours of dyno tuning time. I have looked into the Megasquirt unit personally and it is just barely if at all IT compatible. (It uses GM and Ford sensors which are not "legal" in a BMW or Acura, etc. It also only controls injectors unless you go with a separate unit The Megaspark, which will handle the firing duty.
The point is that Motec is outside of the parameters of the "original class intent" and we need a groundswell to get rid of it.
You must understand one point. I drive a 1.9l Z3 which would GREATLY benefit from Motec. There aren't many bigger oddballs out there! However, I am categorically against the rule as written. If MOTEC is to be the future of IT racing then just let it out of the box.....otherwise put it back in the bottle!!! :P

Rob

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Fastfred92@Dec 22 2005, 09:12 AM
Carl, where do you shop??? I will take several motec's at $1000 per !! When I still had my evil e36 I was quoted about $6000 installed and I doubt the install was $5000.......

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If you really want to know what a MoTec is gonna cost, Click HERE then make a call.

I just did the work up on JUST THE HARDWARE in order for it to meet IT rules. $3850. That doesn't take into account labor and tuning time on a dyno.

Each car is different in what you need - the simplest systems typically won't work for IT becasue they don't have enough capability and need expansion packs that don't allow them to fit into stock housings. The M400 is as 'low end' as I can go for my application...

AB

[Fastfred92]

Originally posted by seckerich@Dec 22 2005, 03:50 PM
And yes Fred, your E36 was evil. Glad you saw the light.

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May I forever be banished to fwd crapboxes in IT, and Miata hell in speccrasher !

[Joe Harlan]

Carl,
Lucky for you the renualt appliance is classed in SCCA HP and you can run that 1000 dollar Motec or what ever speced carb they have.... you'll fit right in over there. People that think the future is opening up the ruleset to address something that really wouldn't be an issue if cars were classed correctly to start with... I am positive the current classification process is pretty solid. That has not been the case in the past.
If you gonna do a motec correctly you gonna spend as much on dyno time and somebody like myself programming it for you.


If you programmed Jimmy into the ECU you would end up with a hotrod that didn't get out of bed till noon and would OD right at the peak of it's carreer....Not sure I would really want that.

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 22 2005, 05:40 PM

If you programmed Jimmy into the ECU you would end up with a hotrod that didn't get out of bed till noon and would OD right at the peak of it's carreer....Not sure I would really want that.

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That's hilarious. Don't forget he was also a lefty playing a righty guitar.......

R

[Eagle7]

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Dec 22 2005, 11:51 AM
I think you have been misinformed. Motec is more than 1K to cram into a stock ECU box AND takes hours of dyno tuning time. I have looked into the Megasquirt unit personally and it is just barely if at all IT compatible. (It uses GM and Ford sensors which are not "legal" in a BMW or Acura, etc. It also only controls injectors unless you go with a separate unit The Megaspark, which will handle the firing duty.
The point is that Motec is outside of the parameters of the "original class intent" and we need a groundswell to get rid of it.
You must understand one point. I drive a 1.9l Z3 which would GREATLY benefit from Motec. There aren't many bigger oddballs out there! However, I am categorically against the rule as written. If MOTEC is to be the future of IT racing then just let it out of the box.....otherwise put it back in the bottle!!! :P

Rob

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Actually, you're a little misinformed wrt the Megasquirt. It can work with a variety of sensor types, and is fairly simple to adapt to many sensors that are not on the supported list. For example, the manifold air temp sensor in my RX-7 is not directly supported, but there's a utility to characterize the response of the sensor and include that into the code. It also DOES control spark - my base board will directly drive my ignitors with the addition of three resistors to the board. I don't know if it'll run the spark on your car, but it works for many.

I just don't get why Motec is "outside the parameters of the original class intent", any more than aftermarket shocks are. I can't see the logic in allowing modifications to the stock ECU that cost some hundreds or thousands of dollars, but prohibit my $200 Megasquirt that can't do anything that a modified stock ECU couldn't do. It just does it cheaper and easier.

[Eagle7]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 22 2005, 01:40 PM
If you gonna do a motec correctly you gonna spend as much on dyno time and somebody like myself programming it for you.

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And it seems like if you gonna rechip your stock ECU, you gonna spend as much on dyno time and somebody like yourself programming it for you. What's good(bad) for the goose is good(bad) for the gander.

[Renaultfool]

Right on Eagle7!

I got my Motec price off another thread on this website. Someone quoted $1,250 for the unit that you would have to adapt into your ECU case yourself. If that is wron, sorry for missleading everyone that is reading this thread.
The Megasquirt is still cheap and they claim you can adjust the program to the parameters of your factory sensors.

It seems to me that it would take a lot of dyno time to dial in a carb or fuel injection, no diffenence there. And you would still need someone with the skill and the jets/programs to do it.

Doc Bro, you refer to an "original class intent" developed before there were many ECU driven fuel injected cars. If you do not allow new cars to take advantage of headers by adjusting the lean condition they will cause, eliminating rev limiters, eliminating speed limiters, eliminating traction control, etc. you will not have any newer cars coming into IT. We can't all race RX-7s and Z cars forever. I agree with you that the box should not matter, to stuff something into a different box just increases the cost.

Joe, you must have missed the point that I run a stock Renault Renix computer in my car. I am able to get close to the correct mixture by altering fuel pressure with the factory regulator adjustment screw, and my ignition is a seperate crank drive unit from the factory. It is cars newer than my 85 Renault that need the help.
I am not at all interested in Production. Racing against multi-thousand dollar cars that have to be rebuilt between races in my IT car on slicks would not be that much fun.
Carl

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Renaultfool@Dec 23 2005, 12:17 AM
Right on Eagle7!

I got my Motec price off another thread on this website. Someone quoted $1,250 for the unit that you would have to adapt into your ECU case yourself. If that is wron, sorry for missleading everyone that is reading this thread.
The Megasquirt is still cheap and they claim you can adjust the program to the parameters of your factory sensors.

It seems to me that it would take a lot of dyno time to dial in a carb or fuel injection, no diffenence there. And you would still need someone with the skill and the jets/programs to do it.

Doc Bro, you refer to an "original class intent" developed before there were many ECU driven fuel injected cars. If you do not allow new cars to take advantage of headers by adjusting the lean condition they will cause, eliminating rev limiters, eliminating speed limiters, eliminating traction control, etc. you will not have any newer cars coming into IT. We can't all race RX-7s and Z cars forever. I agree with you that the box should not matter, to stuff something into a different box just increases the cost.

Joe, you must have missed the point that I run a stock Renault Renix computer in my car. I am able to get close to the correct mixture by altering fuel pressure with the factory regulator adjustment screw, and my ignition is a seperate crank drive unit from the factory. It is cars newer than my 85 Renault that need the help.
I am not at all interested in Production. Racing against multi-thousand dollar cars that have to be rebuilt between races in my IT car on slicks would not be that much fun.
Carl

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I very rarely miss the point. You pop off for the 5 grand it will take to motec the appliance and I will make it make more average HP than it does today. Nobody is talking about racing z's and 7's forever. I think the kick back is a effort to keep the class from eating itself up like the many other classes before it...Have a merry christmas folks.

PS Carl, I don't spout facts based off some thread from another link. I have actually bought installed and programed many different EFI systems on different applications than just road racing. Want FI on your 85 Itasca...

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by Eagle7@Dec 22 2005, 07:00 PM
Actually, you're a little misinformed wrt the Megasquirt. It can work with a variety of sensor types, and is fairly simple to adapt to many sensors that are not on the supported list. For example, the manifold air temp sensor in my RX-7 is not directly supported, but there's a utility to characterize the response of the sensor and include that into the code. It also DOES control spark - my base board will directly drive my ignitors with the addition of three resistors to the board. I don't know if it'll run the spark on your car, but it works for many.

I just don't get why Motec is "outside the parameters of the original class intent", any more than aftermarket shocks are. I can't see the logic in allowing modifications to the stock ECU that cost some hundreds or thousands of dollars, but prohibit my $200 Megasquirt that can't do anything that a modified stock ECU couldn't do. It just does it cheaper and easier.

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Sorry if my info doesn't jive with yours. I got my info from the MS info board on their website by asking questions specific to IT and the Z3. As for the "original intent....." refer to pages 2 and 3 of this post where we went into it with the washer bottle thing. My only point in regards to that discussion was there should be some consistency in the IT rules as far as allowable and not allowable mods. I don't want to go there but......it is a really fun debate!

Rob

[Knestis]

Free to a good home - washer bottle for MkII Golf, and (I think) one for a MkI as well. Just pay shipping. Email me if you want dibs.



Kirk

[JohnRW]

Originally posted by Knestis@Jan 4 2006, 09:12 AM
Free to a good home - washer bottle for MkII Golf, and (I think) one for a MkI as well. Just pay shipping. Email me if you want dibs.

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Does it come with washer fluid ?

[Knestis]

No. It's up to the end user to get the correct fluid from VW to be legal.

K