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Thread: The right car

  1. #41
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    Vince,

    I'm not too far ahead of you in this game of racing IT; I've been trying since August of 2004 . I don't know about your local support network, but one thing that has really helped me is that I've got a "family" of local racers who are bringing me up and exposing me to a lot of different things in a short amount of time. As such I've been able to start building my Jensen Healey, built one Spec Miata with a friend, about to finish a second Spec Miata, done a few races including a 13 hour with the Miata I built, and spent a lot of time fooling around a cantankerous 260Z and rather obtuse TR8. It has been fun!

    But when I look back on it all I can clearly see all of the activities didn't result in my primary goal - getting on track, racing, and becoming a better racer. I did become a much better mechanic though, and the decisions I made with respect to my goal of racing were clearly my own. However, you need to carefully consider your path so that you achieve your goals in a reasonable amount of time. Positive re-enforcement will keep you coming back for more, negative results will frustrate you - I've been there with the latter feeling a number of times! Although this is a hobby, a lot is at stake here. Money, time, personal relationships all play into the cost of racing.

    You are embarking on a big task, that is, building a competitive car for ITS. I think the 944 can be a top car in ITS and I've seen one race from the NE (I'm in the SE) that I felt was very well prepared and I hope to see it running at the front in 2006. But, you are getting ready to spend a lot of money building a car and it'll be awhile before you see some seat time.

    A number of people cautioned me to simply purchase a running race car and get some experience and seat time. I eventually did this with the help of Jeff Young here on the forum because it was apparent to me that while I liked building cars, building a car uses a lot of time and money and delays your on track experience.

    I think a couple of folks here have suggested getting a Spec Miata and running it in SM or ITA. I would agree. Jeff and I have just helped get three new friends into racing (they attend school in two weeks) and they purchased a SM for $7000. No, it isn't a top runner, but it is solid, will get one of them through school, and be racable in 2006 either in SM or ITA. ITA is, IMHO, the most competitive field and having a car there would be a lot of fun. $7000 is barely going to get you a good custom cage, mechanical work to fix issues, springs/shocks, tires, graphics, seat, nets, gear, transponder, harness etc. for your 944 - even if it will get those things, and I doubt it will. $7000 doesn't go far when building a car, but your dollar goes a lot further in RaceLand when you are buying someone else's car.

    And, of course, there are RX7s and other cars out there for reasonable money too. Purchasing one of them can certainly get you on track quickly whilst you sort out how to proceed with the 944. I like the idea of building a 944 for ITS, it'll be a good car. But it is going to take a lot of development, money, and time to run upfront. Heck, even to get her on track is going to take some decent amount of coin to achieve.

    I'm not really trying to tell you which way to go or sway you. Just wanting to relay my experiences to you and maybe provide some guidance from someone at essentially the same point as you. I think if I were to do it all over again I'd probably go out and purchase a teched and running race car from a racer and start running it. Then, whilst I was doing that, I could decide what class I wanted to race in and pick my car accordingly. I don't regret my choice, but when looking at the big picture my choice was not the best one to achieve my ultimate goal - get on track and start racing. Seat time is king.

    Ron

  2. #42
    Join Date
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    As Geo's said, there is no question, you will need to either reinstall the PS pump or switch to a manual rack.

    Yes, cage, seat, fire system recommended (though you don't need more than a handheld per the rules), kill switch, disable ignition lock, window net, etc.

    Regarding #5; you can make a go of it with a fairly stock engine, maybe little things like balancing, a chip, cold air intake. This is particularly true since you're starting out. But you will really be hating yourself if your suspension is still stock. My first year out, mine was; way too much body roll to make it work and get much out of the tires. Sure, it handles very well from the get-go, as the cars are fundamentally excellent, but while it'll be neutral and driveable, it won't be close to optimized.

    At a bare minimum I'd recommend shocks obviously (Koni yellows are popular, though their longevity is limited, I'm not running them anymore), swaybars (Weltmeister, naturally), and replace all the front bushings with poly or the like. Don't forget the strut mounts too, too much flex to want to keep those stock.

    If your budget can swing it, you won't regret bigger springs, torsion bars, and adjustable spring perches; then you'll be able to keep the car nice and flat in the corners and corner-balance it properly to boot, which is huge. Most common setup is 30mm rear bars and 300-400# front springs; Geo's gone up to 32's as I recall, and I've jumped up to 34's (wiht 660# front springs). Depends a bit on your swaybar setup too; I'm still running the stock front swaybar, and only 19mm in the rear. Major downside to this is the t-bars are a major PITA to install (itme-consuming, not really difficult), not to mention expensive - the off-the-shelf 30s are around 300 IIRC, and the larger ones are custom-order and closer to 500 IIRC.

    But whether or not you do the springs and t-bars, you definitely must get it properly corner-balanced and aligned before you hit the track - basic setup will make or break the driveability of the car.

    We can chase this further, but it may be a bit early yet (in your build cycle). Another thing that comes up - where are you? Oftentimes having a knowleadgeable resource close by can help a LOT when doing a build.

    I'm not supposed to say this, since it's not really the right way to do things - but I'm known for plunging in over my head and swimming regardless: I built my very first racecar, that's my current ITB 924, and it's now quite successful with many years of development (of both car and driver). The only way I was able to make it happen on time was, without question, a lot of very helpful experienced individuals, including neighbors, who'd done other IT cars before. Gotta have local help to make it happen on-time.
    Vaughan Scott
    Detroit Region #280052
    '79 924 #77 ITB
    #65 Hidari Firefly P2
    www.vaughanscott.com

  3. #43
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    Of course, you could have the best of both worlds and buy this ex-Broadfoot car...
    http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...?showtopic=6908
    Vaughan Scott
    Detroit Region #280052
    '79 924 #77 ITB
    #65 Hidari Firefly P2
    www.vaughanscott.com

  4. #44
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    Oct 2004
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    Leesburg, Ga
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    Originally posted by 924Guy@Dec 31 2005, 03:36 PM
    Of course, you could have the best of both worlds and buy this ex-Broadfoot car...
    http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...?showtopic=6908
    [snapback]69671[/snapback]
    Thanks! Albert Broadfoot is actually the reason I bought my 944. I meet him about 7 or 8 months ago watching a race at Roebling Road. I did not know at the time the following Broadfoot racing has in the 944 world. Also met his wife, both are very nice people. Albert's point about the 944 is that start with a decent car and build slowly to keep from busting the bank. Good advice if you are patient not one of my virtues). I was ready to race yesterday

    I still might go with Broadfoot's advice especially since I have about 4 more months of working on a bachelors degree (20+ year old school college veteran- 80's rule! ) and will not have the time I want to spend with getting started racing until late spring.

  5. #45
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    I don't know how to put this delicately, but.....

    Be very very careful buying a Broadfoot car for IT. EVERY Broadfoot IT car I've ever seen photos of have had a number of illegal parts. Albert is well liked and I think probably knows the PCA rules better than the IT rules. I'm sure he's a good car builder. But know your rule book. You could end up sending money you didn't want to spend getting your car legal.

    I have absolutely nothing against Albert and he and his wife seem to be very good people. Just be sure of what you're getting.
    George Roffe
    Houston, TX
    84 944 ITS car under construction
    92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
    http://www.nissport.com

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
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    Leesburg, Ga
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    Originally posted by rlearp@Dec 31 2005, 02:45 PM
    Vince,

    I'm not too far ahead of you in this game of racing IT; I've been trying since August of 2004 . But when I look back on it all I can clearly see all of the activities didn't result in my primary goal - getting on track, racing, and becoming a better racer. I did become a much better mechanic though, and the decisions I made with respect to my goal of racing were clearly my own. a racer and start running it. Then, whilst I was doing that, I could decide what class I wanted to race in and pick my car accordingly. I don't regret my choice, but when looking at the big picture my choice was not the best one to achieve my ultimate goal - get on track and start racing. Seat time is king.

    Ron
    [snapback]69664[/snapback]
    Ron, what you are saying makes a lot of sense and I am on par. First, I don't mind working on a car (minor fixes) but my primary goal is to see if I will like racing. I've done some autocrosses and they're fun but I would like to experience more than (6) seventy five second runs in a day. My goal for this year is to do a DE see if I like it, if so (can't imagine not) then plan on a few more. Also do a few autocrosses (easy on the wallet and might make a few more car friends).

    Although I have wanted to race sports cars since I was a kid and playing with slot cars , I want to make sure driving on the track is not going to scare the %$#@ out of me. I figure the DE's might give me a taste of racing even though its not W2W.

    I think my next step will be to see what I can get for my 944 and find a car already built to race (1st or 2nd gen RX7 or something in the price range) and use this car for the DE's then next year plan on a race school. I also know volunteering to help work a race is a good way to learn so I'll probably do that to.
    Thanks again for the input.

  7. #47
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    Originally posted by Vince@Dec 31 2005, 08:59 PM
    Although I have wanted to race sports cars since I was a kid and playing with slot cars , I want to make sure driving on the track is not going to scare the %$#@ out of me. I figure the DE's might give me a taste of racing even though its not W2W.
    [snapback]69725[/snapback]
    DE will not do that for you. If you want to find out, buy a racing kart and go racing. Shoot in a year of karting you will learn more than you would in 5 years of club racing. You'll learn racecraft and you'll certainly get used to running W2W and you'll know if it's going to scare you.
    George Roffe
    Houston, TX
    84 944 ITS car under construction
    92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
    http://www.nissport.com

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Leesburg, Ga
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    Originally posted by 924Guy@Dec 31 2005, 03:25 PM
    As Geo's said, there is no question, you will need to either reinstall the PS pump or switch to a manual rack.

    I'm not supposed to say this, since it's not really the right way to do things - but I'm known for plunging in over my head and swimming regardless: I built my very first racecar, that's my current ITB 924, and it's now quite successful with many years of development (of both car and driver). The only way I was able to make it happen on time was, without question, a lot of very helpful experienced individuals, including neighbors, who'd done other IT cars before. Gotta have local help to make it happen on-time.
    [snapback]69669[/snapback]
    Thanks Vaughn, at 42 and finishing up a bachelors degree I should have finished years ago (along with raising two teenagers). I don't have much time on my hands to spend working on a car, fortunately I'll be finished with school in late spring, but I think at this point I am going to get rid of the 944 and put the money in a car already built and see what happens. Then I have been known to change my mind

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
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    Leesburg, Ga
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    Originally posted by Geo@Jan 1 2006, 04:03 AM
    DE will not do that for you. If you want to find out, buy a racing kart and go racing. Shoot in a year of karting you will learn more than you would in 5 years of club racing. You'll learn racecraft and you'll certainly get used to running W2W and you'll know if it's going to scare you.
    [snapback]69726[/snapback]
    I really don't think I'll have a problem with W2W, I've been through Atlanta rush hour enough.



  10. #50
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    Originally posted by Vince@Dec 31 2005, 11:59 PM
    I think my next step will be to see what I can get for my 944 and find a car already built to race (1st or 2nd gen RX7 or something in the price range) and use this car for the DE's then next year plan on a race school. I also know volunteering to help work a race is a good way to learn so I'll probably do that to.
    Thanks again for the input.
    [snapback]69725[/snapback]
    I think you are making a good decision and I bet some others agree. I just read you were in school too, that just makes it harder to assemble a car. I'd hate to see someone get lost in a big project while trying to race. But, on the other hand, I'm sure you can do both too - there is a big support network and people like to help a new racer - I know, I've experienced it myself and folks in the SCCA IT world are a good bunch.

    I've got some good contacts in NC for RX7 racers and I'll see if they can turn up a running car. I was told of a fantastic one for sale a couple of months ago when we were looking for the three fellows I mentioned in my eariler post and see if it is still around. They just decided to go SM, but the car would have been a good one.

    Ron

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
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    Leesburg, Ga
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    Originally posted by rlearp@Jan 1 2006, 12:11 PM
    I think you are making a good decision and I bet some others agree. I just read you were in school too, that just makes it harder to assemble a car. I'd hate to see someone get lost in a big project while trying to race. But, on the other hand, I'm sure you can do both too - there is a big support network and people like to help a new racer - I know, I've experienced it myself and folks in the SCCA IT world are a good bunch.

    I've got some good contacts in NC for RX7 racers and I'll see if they can turn up a running car. I was told of a fantastic one for sale a couple of months ago when we were looking for the three fellows I mentioned in my eariler post and see if it is still around. They just decided to go SM, but the car would have been a good one.

    Ron
    [snapback]69742[/snapback]
    Thanks Ron, I appreciate the help.

    I posted my 944 in the "Wanted" area of the IT web-site to see if there is anyone out there that might want to trade for a race ready car. I will have pics of my car ready today. As far as a straight sell I'm not sure of what to ask for it I've put over $6,000 ($3,000 for the car plus repairs/upgrades) in it since I bought it three months ago, I will take any reasonable offer.

    Thanks again!

    Vince
    [email protected]

  12. #52
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    Looks like a nice RX7 for sale right now in the 703 area code, and, I think you'll be getting some email shortly on where another nice one is for sale!

    Ron

  13. #53
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    Originally posted by Geo@Jan 1 2006, 01:53 AM
    I don't know how to put this delicately, but.....

    Be very very careful buying a Broadfoot car for IT. EVERY Broadfoot IT car I've ever seen photos of have had a number of illegal parts. Albert is well liked and I think probably knows the PCA rules better than the IT rules. I'm sure he's a good car builder. But know your rule book. You could end up sending money you didn't want to spend getting your car legal.

    I have absolutely nothing against Albert and he and his wife seem to be very good people. Just be sure of what you're getting.
    [snapback]69720[/snapback]
    Geoge,

    thanks for looking out for a Newbie.


  14. #54
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    Originally posted by Vince@Dec 31 2005, 09:15 PM
    I really don't think I'll have a problem with W2W, I've been through Atlanta rush hour enough.
    [snapback]69728[/snapback]

    I was just responding to when you wrote:

    "Although I have wanted to race sports cars since I was a kid and playing with slot cars , I want to make sure driving on the track is not going to scare the %$#@ out of me. I figure the DE's might give me a taste of racing even though its not W2W."

    George Roffe
    Houston, TX
    84 944 ITS car under construction
    92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
    http://www.nissport.com

  15. #55
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    Originally posted by Vince@Dec 31 2005, 09:10 PM
    Thanks Vaughn, at 42 and finishing up a bachelors degree I should have finished years ago (along with raising two teenagers). I don't have much time on my hands to spend working on a car, fortunately I'll be finished with school in late spring, but I think at this point I am going to get rid of the 944 and put the money in a car already built and see what happens. Then I have been known to change my mind
    [snapback]69727[/snapback]
    Good for you on getting your degree!

    While the gen 1 RX-7 isn't exactly a competitive car these days, I'd strongly consider one as a first race car. They are reasonably cheap, relatively common, and have a rather stable value.

    After you get some experience and get a better idea what you might want, then either build or buy what you would ultimately want.
    George Roffe
    Houston, TX
    84 944 ITS car under construction
    92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
    http://www.nissport.com

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