The right car

[lateapex911]

I have a first gen RX-7and I looked at that ad. Not having seen the car, I can't say whether it is in good condition, but.....in '93 I sold my first RX7 for 3600, and it didn't have a third of the stuff that car has. Seems like a great price.

You could NEVER build one for that...or even double.

And the stuff on the car is good. Shocks are probably not the ideal, but they'll work.

If the guy is cool and you feel good about it, it's a great place to start you racing career. Little maintenance, and great resale.

(And if the ITA changes go through, it will look better there too.)

[Fastfred92]

Sit tight and see what happens with the 944, it would be a decent car at Roebling with a weight drop. That said it is always better to buy than build unless you have unlimited budget but sounds as if you are already half way there so a cage and some safety stuff and get on track, add as your wallet allows...

and you are fine with no power steering, some of the cars came to the US that way, my 83 sure did...

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 27 2005, 07:45 AM

George (and Jeff),

The last thing I would suggest is for someone that's just starting out, to spend the big $$$ on a pro-built motor. More than likely, they're not going to be able to take advantage of the extra power, and the extra $$$ would probably be better spent on seat time or developing the car's suspension. I have no idea what a Milledge 944 lump costs, or a Sunbelt or Rebello Nissan lump, but I'm sure they're not cheap. I'd imagine that the Porsche is for sure on the North side of $5k, and the Nissan from either of those shops might be as well.

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Sorry if my point got muddled. I'm not suggesting a pro-built engine. I was only trying to point out that the 944 is not anywhere near as expensive to build as most people think. The main difference is in a pro-built engine. And if you choose a car where IT prep items are not readily available (such as a Sentra SE-R), it could actually be MORE expensive to build properly than a 944 where everything necessary is available.

[latebrake]

Originally posted by Vince@Dec 27 2005, 02:07 PM
Thanks Lawrence, the car is stock all the way through except for deleting the A/C and PS, stripping the interior and upgrading the gauges. I'm wondering what I would need to upgrade to get it on the track. I know now I can take it to track events. But, when I am ready to race other than roll cage, fuel cell could I race the car in its stock form for the experience?

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The 944 was shipped all over the world and the US without A/C so getting rid of the thing is legal in IT.
If you have a roll cage you are almost there. If not look on the 44Cup site and check out several that are for sale. Auto Power bolt in cages are there for cheap. $400.00 the last oneI remember. Weld the thing in and add the door bars and its done. Can be moved too.

Run the car stock until you need the HP. As I mentioned before spend the cash on things that can be moved or can save your life in this car or any other.
The cool shirt is a true performance upgrade. Good for 50+ HP when its too hot to think.
The fire system will make the guys on your shoulder shut up about burning to death. The Hans will do the same thing. Change the foot well and make a racing cockpit out of it.

Now after all that, if you can find someone who is getting out of racing and has a car that is truly well sorted to race,,,,buy that one and have fun driving.

I am in finance so I know what I am talking about on this one. Find a 15000 car,buy it for 7500.00,go to the bank and borrow the money,dont race until the car is paid for,work on it to make it YOUR car. You can take it to school or DE days and behave yourself. thats 40 t0 60% on the dollor or very close,cant do the math with out the car #'s. Sounds crazy to tell someone to borrow the cash to get a toy but you save so much money its worth it.
Dont blame it on me if you crash the thing and still have to make the payments HA!!!

Lawrence

[924Guy]

Manual steering is indeed legit, but you do have to swap in the manual rack, not just empty the fluid out of the power rack and remove the drive belt.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by 924Guy@Dec 28 2005, 11:12 AM
Manual steering is indeed legit, but you do have to swap in the manual rack, not just empty the fluid out of the power rack and remove the drive belt.

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Not sure on the 924 but this is especially true for Miata's as the PS version had a quicker ratio - so a 'manual' version of teh PS rack would be a configuration that didn't come from Mazda - ever. It is specifically allowed in SM so that is why they exist for those who may be thinking that.

AB

[Fastfred92]

Originally posted by Geo@Dec 28 2005, 05:21 AM
Sorry if my point got muddled. I'm not suggesting a pro-built engine. I was only trying to point out that the 944 is not anywhere near as expensive to build as most people think. The main difference is in a pro-built engine. And if you choose a car where IT prep items are not readily available (such as a Sentra SE-R), it could actually be MORE expensive to build properly than a 944 where everything necessary is available.

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If it helps I can give some real world $$$ #'s ( ask me how I know ).. These prices are for a few years ago ( except miata ) so adjust accordingly: All pro built to the current ( at that time IT or similar club rules )
944 2.5 = $6000 parts and labor inc. 4 hrs dyno tune
e36 2.5 = $6200 parts and labor plus $900 dyno tune/ burn chips (pre motec)*
SM = $4500 turn key.... ( spec miata rules )

*You can now add $4-6k to the e36 for motec in the box with tuning to get the extra hp....
Most of the labor cost will be in IT headwork and machine shop,...

[Z3_GoCar]

Originally posted by Fastfred92@Dec 28 2005, 10:21 AM
If it helps I can give some real world $$$ #'s ( ask me how I know ).. These prices are for a few years ago ( except miata ) so adjust accordingly: All pro built to the current ( at that time IT or similar club rules )
944 2.5 = $6000 parts and labor inc. 4 hrs dyno tune
e36 2.5 = $6200 parts and labor plus $900 dyno tune/ burn chips (pre motec)*
SM = $4500 turn key.... ( spec miata rules )

*You can now add $4-6k to the e36 for motec in the box with tuning to get the extra hp....
Most of the labor cost will be in IT headwork and machine shop,...

[snapback]69389[/snapback]

I think your spec-miata estimate is off. Back in September I almost bought a SM that was a top ten finisher, Barry Hartzel preped, with a Rebello motor. The price tag was just North of 23k. I think the car that Justin Hall won the west coast chanpionship with went for 32k. The 944 has a good development base, and isn't as expensive as some think. It's been racing and winning since SSGT in the mid 80's. I think that since you've got the interior out already, go for a good weld in cage, a local cage builder can do a better job for much less than you think, and never skimp on safety. You'll be good to go.

James

[Fastfred92]

Originally posted by Z3_GoCar@Dec 28 2005, 05:38 PM
I think your spec-miata estimate is off. Back in September I almost bought a SM that was a top ten finisher, Barry Hartzel preped, with a Rebello motor. The price tag was just North of 23k. I think the car that Justin Hall won the west coast chanpionship with went for 32k. The 944 has a good development base, and isn't as expensive as some think. It's been racing and winning since SSGT in the mid 80's. I think that since you've got the interior out already, go for a good weld in cage, a local cage builder can do a better job for much less than you think, and never skimp on safety. You'll be good to go.

James

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Maybe to be a bit clearer, those are amounts paid, not estimates and that was with suppling the usable core engine to start with. Engine builder all have different prices so you cost may vary.... Buying a built car and buying a winning built car is two different things

[924Guy]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 28 2005, 12:15 PM
Not sure on the 924 but this is especially true for Miata's as the PS version had a quicker ratio - so a 'manual' version of teh PS rack would be a configuration that didn't come from Mazda - ever. It is specifically allowed in SM so that is why they exist for those who may be thinking that.

AB

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I was talking about the 944, which came with manuals early on (same spec line). The 924 never came with power steering. Before anyone gets wound up, I said the 924, not the 924S, which is PS-equipped, different engine, different IT class.

924 motors, pro-built, still cost the same as VW motors... 3-5k. They're just faster.

[latebrake]

Originally posted by 924Guy@Dec 28 2005, 06:46 PM
I was talking about the 944, which came with manuals early on (same spec line). The 924 never came with power steering. Before anyone gets wound up, I said the 924, not the 924S, which is PS-equipped, different engine, different IT class.

924 motors, pro-built, still cost the same as VW motors... 3-5k. They're just faster.

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Hi Vaughan, What does the 924 in ITB weigh? How much HP can you get from a fresh legal engine? I have a friend with a PCA car with the turbo nose,can this be run in ITB? Can carbs be run in ITB,if not is a mch FI required or can an after marker computer EFI be used?

Can carbs be used in ITA? If so are they worth the trouble for the HP?

Lawrence

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by 924Guy@Dec 28 2005, 04:46 PM
I was talking about the 944, which came with manuals early on (same spec line). The 924 never came with power steering. Before anyone gets wound up, I said the 924, not the 924S, which is PS-equipped, different engine, different IT class.

924 motors, pro-built, still cost the same as VW motors... 3-5k. They're just faster.

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No confusion, just sighting that there may be issues with power racks converted to manual and their legality on some cars.

AB

[Geo]

Originally posted by Fastfred92@Dec 28 2005, 10:21 AM
If it helps I can give some real world $$$ #'s ( ask me how I know ).. These prices are for a few years ago ( except miata ) so adjust accordingly: All pro built to the current ( at that time IT or similar club rules )
944 2.5 = $6000 parts and labor inc. 4 hrs dyno tune
e36 2.5 = $6200 parts and labor plus $900 dyno tune/ burn chips (pre motec)*
SM = $4500 turn key.... ( spec miata rules )

*You can now add $4-6k to the e36 for motec in the box with tuning to get the extra hp....
Most of the labor cost will be in IT headwork and machine shop,...

[snapback]69389[/snapback]

Are those prices for a Milledge 944 engine and a Sunbelt E36 engine and a Sunbelt SM engine? Let's compare best to best. The rest is simply hard to compare.

[Fastfred92]

Originally posted by Geo@Dec 29 2005, 02:26 AM
Are those prices for a Milledge 944 engine and a Sunbelt E36 engine and a Sunbelt SM engine? Let's compare best to best. The rest is simply hard to compare.

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George
Without consent I would not discuss who the builder was however I will tell you that the FL based 944 builder had a long background in Firehawk, SSA etc. and Sunbelt's BMW fame has been built by in large in the last few years inc. post motec years, before that many a ITS race was won ( still is ) using another builders goods. I would also offer that a SM engine builder here in good old NC won as many big races, pro, etc this year as any other..... the best is an opinion,,, at best.

[924Guy]

Originally posted by latebrake@Dec 28 2005, 06:06 PM
Hi Vaughan, What does the 924 in ITB weigh? How much HP can you get from a fresh legal engine? I have a friend with a PCA car with the turbo nose,can this be run in ITB? Can carbs be run in ITB,if not is a mch FI required or can an after marker computer EFI be used?

Can carbs be used in ITA? If so are they worth the trouble for the HP?

Lawrence

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It scales at 2600#, which I make with 40# of lead and half a tank of gas; I also weigh about 150, so there's still a little room there for more normal weight drivers. I'm afraid I can't answer about the engine, since I haven't dynoed mine yet, and besides which that's home-built, not pro-built. However I'd hope mine is maybe around 130hp at the crank. Might be able to get a bit more from a pro-built one, but I haven't even bothered calling to ask, since I don't have the cash - no point depressing myself!

The rest of your questions would be answered by reading the IT rules - doesn't sound like you're at all very familiar with them. No, you're not allowed to change sheetmetal, or run carbs; you must run the stock CIS. Any further 924-specific Q's, chase me and the other ITB 924 guys down on the Racing forum of 924board.org.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Fastfred92@Dec 28 2005, 08:52 PM
George
Without consent I would not discuss who the builder was however I will tell you that the FL based 944 builder had a long background in Firehawk, SSA etc. and Sunbelt's BMW fame has been built by in large in the last few years inc. post motec years, before that many a ITS race was won ( still is ) using another builders goods. I would also offer that a SM engine builder here in good old NC won as many big races, pro, etc this year as any other..... the best is an opinion,,, at best.

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Fair enough.

I still don't think the cost of an equal quality engine would be all that different.

Bottom line is I think a well developed 944 would not be much more expensive than a well developed Sentra SE-R (or a number of other cars).

[Fastfred92]

Originally posted by Geo@Dec 30 2005, 04:15 AM
Fair enough.

I still don't think the cost of an equal quality engine would be all that different.

Bottom line is I think a well developed 944 would not be much more expensive than a well developed Sentra SE-R (or a number of other cars).

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I agree with you on that...... now if we could just get enough weight shaved off the 44 I might just consider building another one myself..... hmmm

[Vince]

Originally posted by Fastfred92@Dec 30 2005, 03:37 PM
I agree with you on that...... now if we could just get enough weight shaved off the 44 I might just consider building another one myself..... hmmm

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I appreciate all the information, now I'm wondering whether it would be better to just keep what I have rather than sell or trade for an RX7 and run it stock (the 944) especially since I have taken care of all the oil leaks, replaced the FP, FPR and fuel filter. I also had the balance shaft belt replaced and new timing belt. The guy I bought from just replaced the master cylinder and brake pads all around(probably OEM) and I just drained the transaxle fluid and put in Mobile 1. The interior is also stripped out including rear seat.

Here are some questions about getting the 944 track legal w/o an engine overhaul or engine replacement and do people start this way?

1.) THe engine is totally stock except for the deletion of the A/C and power steering pump. Suspension as far as I can tell is stock. Are there any mods I would need to do or would be recommended to make the engine last longer that doesn't involve big bucks?

2.) How do I findout if I would need to put on a manual steering rack (because the ps pump has been removed)?

3.) Other than a cage and racing seat(s) with harness what else will I need to make track legal? transponder? (what does this do?)

4.) What happens if my car is now too light? It has got to be 150-200lbs lighter than it was after pulling off the a/c, ps, and rear seat.

5.) If I add just the cage and seats and get it on the track is it going to be TOO uncompetitive that it is either dangerous or no fun at all? (My goal in the beginning is to just get track experience but not at the expense of safety).

6.) And as far as safety goes I would want a fire system, what kind of money for a decent setup?

There are alot of questions, if you want just list the question number you are responding to and again thank you for the help

Vince

[JamesB]

Vince, goto the scca website and download the full GCR and start reading it. that would give you want you need for safety, cage and other requirements. Then let the 944 guys chime in on anything you need to change to extend the life of the drivetrain.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Vince+Dec 30 2005, 01:59 PM-->

1.) THe engine is totally stock except for the deletion of the A/C and power steering pump. Suspension as far as I can tell is stock. Are there any mods I would need to do or would be recommended to make the engine last longer that doesn't involve big bucks?

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[/b]

Accusump. This is arguable, but the 944 does have a well know apetite for the number 2 rod bearing. Lots of strategies to prevent it. The Accusump and baffling are your only legal solutions.

Originally posted by Vince@Dec 30 2005, 01:59 PM
2.) How do I findout if I would need to put on a manual steering rack (because the ps pump has been removed)?

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You either need the full working PS system or the manual rack. From what I can tell it's a Fielder's Choice.

Originally posted by Vince@Dec 30 2005, 01:59 PM
4.) What happens if my car is now too light?

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It won't be.

<!--QuoteBegin-Vince@Dec 30 2005, 01:59 PM
5.) If I add just the cage and seats and get it on the track is it going to be TOO uncompetitive that it is either dangerous or no fun at all?

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That is going to remain to be seen. I think the 944 will be a reasonably decent car for ITS in the future.