The right car

[Vince]

I want to eventually get into racing but need to start with a car that is of the friendlier side to the pocketbook.

I currently have a street legal 944 which I have started setting up for autocross and DE's, but am concerned about the costs of building and maintaining this car. Believe me I love the Porsche brand but I love sportscar racing more and have been on the side lines long enough (just turned 42 today) . Before I go any further with spending money on my 944 I want to explore other options as far as car choice.

I want to stick with RWD. I am also a novice mechanic with limited free time so I want to stick to a car that is fairly easy to work on (I would not call the 944 novice friendly). I grew up around the GM brand (78 Camaro 305, 79 Firebird Formula 301). I'm wondering how a mid 80's- early 90's Camaro/Firebird would compare in cost and fun to a 1st or 2nd gen RX-7. Also other considerations are the Mustang or anyother suggestion.

Thanks for any help.

Vince

[lateapex911]

Happy Birthday Vince..I replied to you in the Mazda section, but, I'll add that the F body cars aren't really classed in IT at this time. They are classed as American Sedan cars (AS), but the prep level is higher...as in more expensive. You are allowed to substitute a Ford rear for your GM, IIRC, and so on.

[Geo]

Vince,

I am building a 944 for IT and to be honest, I don't think it's really any more expensive to build than our Sentra SE-R built to equivilent specs. the engine would be a bit more, but not as much as you might think.

I applaud you for looking at other cars to build or race. Too many people just get too worked up over wanting to race whatever car it is they are/have been into. Both gen1 and gen2 RX-7s are good car, although the gen1 could use some help in being competitive (as could the 944). Both the gen2 RX-7 and the 944 are a fair bit more to purchase as a built car than a gen1 RX-7.

If you would like more detailed info about building a 944 for ITS, e-mail me at: [email protected]

[JLawton]

Originally posted by Geo@Dec 26 2005, 01:10 AM
Vince,

I am building a 944 for IT and to be honest, I don't think it's really any more expensive to build than our Sentra SE-R built to equivilent specs. the engine would be a bit more, but not as much as you might think.

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George, I have to respectfully disagree!!

My first IT car was a 944 and I "assume" you guys are talking a straight 944 and not a 944S. First, look at your starting horse power. Not a good match up to the other ITS cars. How much does Milledge get for one of his engines? And that only gets the horsepower up to 180+???

Unfortunately, just cause it says "Porsche" on the parts means it gets marked waaaaay up!! Look at the price of wheels, body panels, rear wheel bearings, trans axels, etc compared to anything but the BMW. And all that money gets you an uncompetitive car.......

Although, the reliability is great!! In three years of PCA racing and two of ITS, I never had anything break!!

Then, there's the whole discussion of buying a built race car instead of building your own...... Sell the 944 and you're half way there in the money for an RX7........

[gran racing]

The way it is classed currently, it will never be a front-runner but the older ITA MR2 is very easy on the wallet. Talk with Jake here who races his. Tires - last forever!! Same with brakes and other parts. And the car is very well balanced. The newer MR2 might be an excellent choice although the donor car will cost more.

[Jake]

http://southeast.44cup.com/

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think one of the really smart things to do is to see what top companies are in your area. If you see a proliferation of BMW's, you may be in the Virginia area, you see RX-7's, you may be in the Southeast...

My point is that a top tuner like Bimmerworld, Speedsource, ISC, etc is an INVALUABLE asset to have when racing. Anyone can buy or build a car to race - but if you have local experts - who are proven successful - then you are one step ahead.

And, as always, the smart thing to do is go to a few races, see what is popular and competitive (and why) then make your decision. In my 15 years of motorsport, if I was getting into a new venture, the FIRST thing I would do is get a rulebook for that class, series, santioning body, etc.

Good luck and have fun!!!!

AB

[Knestis]

Andy makes a great point about tapping into your local knowledge base. It can save you a TON of money, time, and frustration.

There are cars out there that are essentially kits now - they've been pretty well figured out, you can get 90% close on the first purchase, and buyers (you) benefit from economies of scale. The RX7 is a great example of this.

It might be as simple as having a local service joint that specializes in a particular marque, so you can mooch time/help for things that are otherwise an expensive pain - pressing bearings and so forth.

You are limiting yourself a BUNCH by restricting your focus to RWD chassis, though. Once all of the wheels are working at high slip angles, it's a heck of a lot less important (I think, anyway) which tires are pushing the whole project forward. Make sure that you aren't biasing your thinking too much based on your autocross experiences, where FWD is much more of a handicap with all of those goofy-ass little corners...

Have fun!

K

[924Guy]

With a 924 you get the same great chassis, cheaper motor, and more competitive since they're in ITB. The only downside is that there aren't any out there built to win, 'cept mine, which isn't for sale. Then again, if you're wanting to build it yourself, that'd be fine.

Wouldn't recommend Rustangs; the only IT ones are the 4-cyl ones in ITB, and they're not hard to beat with a Porsche... or any other good German iron...

[Vince]

Thanks everyone for the input!

I live about 3 1/2 hours from Roebling Road in Savannah, Ga. Fortunately I have family that lives only 10 minutes from the track so I have a place to bunk. I've been there for a few SCCA and NASA races.

I agree that I probably shouldn't rule out a FWD car, so the search will begin along with trying to explain to my wife why I'm exploring other options On the other hand I'm still considering slowly building the 944 over the next couple of years while I start with DE's until I've eventually built the car. In other words stretch the costs over a couple of years (yes I'd rather find a good car already built, go to a school and start yesterday, but there is the $ thing )

[Vince]

Originally posted by gran racing@Dec 26 2005, 02:35 PM
The way it is classed currently, it will never be a front-runner but the older ITA MR2 is very easy on the wallet. Talk with Jake here who races his. Tires - last forever!! Same with brakes and other parts. And the car is very well balanced. The newer MR2 might be an excellent choice although the donor car will cost more.

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Thanks! I haven't thought about an MR2 before but I would think the mid engine layout would make for a good track car. Thanks for the help!
Vince

[Vince]

Originally posted by Geo@Dec 26 2005, 06:10 AM
Vince,

I am building a 944 for IT and to be honest, I don't think it's really any more expensive to build than our Sentra SE-R built to equivilent specs. the engine would be a bit more, but not as much as you might think.

I applaud you for looking at other cars to build or race. Too many people just get too worked up over wanting to race whatever car it is they are/have been into. Both gen1 and gen2 RX-7s are good car, although the gen1 could use some help in being competitive (as could the 944). Both the gen2 RX-7 and the 944 are a fair bit more to purchase as a built car than a gen1 RX-7.

If you would like more detailed info about building a 944 for ITS, e-mail me at: [email protected]

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Thanks George, If I decide to stay with the 944 I will definitely contact you.

Good luck with the car!
Vince

[Bill Miller]

Vince,

As Dave pointed out, an AW11 MR2 is probably a good beginner car (that's what I started with), but the downside is where it's classed. I was racing one of these back in the mid-90s, and people were trying to get it moved to ITB then. If it's on the ITAC 'list' to get adjusted, it may be a better choice. The car is a lot of fun to drive. All the suspension settings, on all 4 corners, are fully adjustable. It's got some nice balance, and generally 'feels' like a race car.

If you're set on RWD, you probably won't find a more common car than a 1st gen RX7. Again, won't be at the pointy end of the grid, but there are a TON of them out there, they're a known qunatity, from a development standpoint, and you'll probably find several at whatever track you're racing at. Some areas of the country even have spec series that they run in (I think where you are, they have IT7, which preps to ITA specs, but races only against themselves). Not to mention that built ones are readily available, and are pretty easy on the wallet.

All that being said, welcome to the monkey house!

[Geo]

Originally posted by JLawton@Dec 26 2005, 06:28 AM
George, I have to respectfully disagree!!

My first IT car was a 944 and I "assume" you guys are talking a straight 944 and not a 944S. First, look at your starting horse power. Not a good match up to the other ITS cars. How much does Milledge get for one of his engines? And that only gets the horsepower up to 180+???

Unfortunately, just cause it says "Porsche" on the parts means it gets marked waaaaay up!! Look at the price of wheels, body panels, rear wheel bearings, trans axels, etc compared to anything but the BMW. And all that money gets you an uncompetitive car.......

Although, the reliability is great!! In three years of PCA racing and two of ITS, I never had anything break!!

Then, there's the whole discussion of buying a built race car instead of building your own...... Sell the 944 and you're half way there in the money for an RX7........

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Sorry Jeff, but I think you're way off base here. I have already said the engine is a bit more. But, comparing a Milledge engine with a Sunbelt engine for the SE-R (or any other engine they build for that matter) and it's not all that much more. The engine is definitely the most expensive part of that proposition if you make a commitment to run up front.

All of the rest of the stuff for the 944 is pretty cheap in comparision. The gearboxes are just a bit more than the SE-R. The wheels are dirt cheap. I have two full sets of forged wheels I bought for $500 or less a set. Try to buy forged wheels for another car. The cast wheels I bought dirt cheap. The amount of good used parts available for the 944 is stagering.

Then there is the fact that all the development pieces necessary already exist for the 944. If you want to build another car for which this pieces don't exist, and you can't design them yourself and have ready access to someplace to have them made, the price is pretty danged high.

As for selling the 944 and being half way to an RX-7, have you tried to sell an NA 8v 944 recently? Unless it's pristine, they sell pretty cheaply.

Competitiveness is another issue, but that may change.

I stand by what I said. Built to the same level, the 944 is no more expensive to build than a Sentra SE-R other than the engine, and if you go with the top engine builders, the difference isn't all that much either.

If I lived in the SE, I think I'd buy a gen1 RX-7 and run IT7. Dirt cheap and it's one of the two most developed race cars in history. Assuming you don't ball it up, if you take good care of it when the time comes to move onto another type of car you should be able to get out of it pretty much what you put into it, expenses aside.

[Vince]

Originally posted by Geo@Dec 27 2005, 01:09 PM
Sorry Jeff, but I think you're way off base here. I have already said the engine is a bit more. But, comparing a Milledge engine with a Sunbelt engine for the SE-R (or any other engine they build for that matter) and it's not all that much more. The engine is definitely the most expensive part of that proposition if you make a commitment to run up front.

All of the rest of the stuff for the 944 is pretty cheap in comparision. The gearboxes are just a bit more than the SE-R. The wheels are dirt cheap. I have two full sets of forged wheels I bought for $500 or less a set. Try to buy forged wheels for another car. The cast wheels I bought dirt cheap. The amount of good used parts available for the 944 is stagering.

Then there is the fact that all the development pieces necessary already exist for the 944. If you want to build another car for which this pieces don't exist, and you can't design them yourself and have ready access to someplace to have them made, the price is pretty danged high.

As for selling the 944 and being half way to an RX-7, have you tried to sell an NA 8v 944 recently? Unless it's pristine, they sell pretty cheaply.

Competitiveness is another issue, but that may change.

I stand by what I said. Built to the same level, the 944 is no more expensive to build than a Sentra SE-R other than the engine, and if you go with the top engine builders, the difference isn't all that much either.

If I lived in the SE, I think I'd buy a gen1 RX-7 and run IT7. Dirt cheap and it's one of the two most developed race cars in history. Assuming you don't ball it up, if you take good care of it when the time comes to move onto another type of car you should be able to get out of it pretty much what you put into it, expenses aside.

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IF anyone out there knows of someone with a first gen RX7 race ready or even street/track setup and not to expensive let me know. I live in South Georgia and can go a few hundred miles. Better yet if someone would like to trade for my 944 that would be an option. I'd also consider something other than an RX7 if it makes sense. My email is [email protected] or call me at 1-229-344-2313.

Thanks again!!!

Vince

[Bill Miller]

Funny you should say that Vince!

http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...?showtopic=6946

Right here in the classifieds. Not sure if you want to make the trip to Ohio or not though.

Other cars you may want to consider would be an S13 Nissan 240SX (ITA) or an S14 version (ITS).

What I will suggest, is to talk to a few people, go to some races this year, and see who's running what. A lot of times, you will pick a car because it lets you run in a group w/ your friends. The other thing you need to think about, is what are you long-range plans. Very few people I know keep their first race car for very long. Some because they want something else (usually faster), some because they went w/ an inexpensive car, just to get it, and it wasn't what they really wanted (not a bad thing, just a statement of fact), and others because things happen w/ new drivers (that's not to say that anything can't happen anytime, to anyone).

As I tell everyone, don't put a car on the track that you're not prepared to write off.


George (and Jeff),

The last thing I would suggest is for someone that's just starting out, to spend the big $$$ on a pro-built motor. More than likely, they're not going to be able to take advantage of the extra power, and the extra $$$ would probably be better spent on seat time or developing the car's suspension. I have no idea what a Milledge 944 lump costs, or a Sunbelt or Rebello Nissan lump, but I'm sure they're not cheap. I'd imagine that the Porsche is for sure on the North side of $5k, and the Nissan from either of those shops might be as well.

[latebrake]

Originally posted by Vince@Dec 26 2005, 01:09 AM
I want to eventually get into racing but need to start with a car that is of the friendlier side to the pocketbook.

I currently have a street legal 944 which I have started setting up for autocross and DE's, but am concerned about the costs of building and maintaining this car. Believe me I love the Porsche brand but I love sportscar racing more and have been on the side lines long enough (just turned 42 today) . Before I go any further with spending money on my 944 I want to explore other options as far as car choice.

I want to stick with RWD. I am also a novice mechanic with limited free time so I want to stick to a car that is fairly easy to work on (I would not call the 944 novice friendly). I grew up around the GM brand (78 Camaro 305, 79 Firebird Formula 301). I'm wondering how a mid 80's- early 90's Camaro/Firebird would compare in cost and fun to a 1st or 2nd gen RX-7. Also other considerations are the Mustang or anyother suggestion.

Thanks for any help.

Vince

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First off you should never build a race car. I built one and bought one,second one was more fun.
Where are you on your car now?
The 944 wont run up front in ITS skin....
Spend your money on things like seat and H&N system,cool shirt,good fire system,these things can be moved to anything else you move up to later. The 944 isnt any different than anyother car. The trans are cheap if you look,engine is $500.00 to $15,000 you choose which one. They are safe well build cars.

Heres a good point to conisder. They run in NASA,SCCA,HSR,SVRA. If you are looking to race cheap you can pick a track and run with any of these groups when they are at your home track.
Dont spend a lot of cash on the power plant first off. Get things that make the car handle better and drive the car as much as you can afford.

** You will never out run the cubic dollar no matter what car you pick. **

If you have the bug its better to see how bad you got it before you spend the kids college fun on racing. They can be a pain to work on,have to pull the car apart to change the clutch,but you can change the trans in an hour after you do it once. Lowering the car is not as bad as its made out. I can change my T bars in 30 min or less. Lots of cars for cheap for body parts,I have several I got for free just to get them out of sight.
That said,you will never win anything until the car is moved. You may win in the 944 cup with NASA or spec 944 but not in ITS.

Lawrence

[Fastfred92]

And if Roebling is going to be your home track get a good handling car for whatever class you plan to run. Handling will be more important than HP if the majority of your events are there.

[Vince]

Originally posted by latebrake@Dec 27 2005, 03:09 PM
First off you should never build a race car. I built one and bought one,second one was more fun.
Where are you on your car now?
The 944 wont run up front in ITS skin....
Spend your money on things like seat and H&N system,cool shirt,good fire system,these things can be moved to anything else you move up to later. The 944 isnt any different than anyother car. The trans are cheap if you look,engine is $500.00 to $15,000 you choose which one. They are safe well build cars.

Heres a good point to conisder. They run in NASA,SCCA,HSR,SVRA. If you are looking to race cheap you can pick a track and run with any of these groups when they are at your home track.
Dont spend a lot of cash on the power plant first off. Get things that make the car handle better and drive the car as much as you can afford.

** You will never out run the cubic dollar no matter what car you pick. **

If you have the bug its better to see how bad you got it before you spend the kids college fun on racing. They can be a pain to work on,have to pull the car apart to change the clutch,but you can change the trans in an hour after you do it once. Lowering the car is not as bad as its made out. I can change my T bars in 30 min or less. Lots of cars for cheap for body parts,I have several I got for free just to get them out of sight.
That said,you will never win anything until the car is moved. You may win in the 944 cup with NASA or spec 944 but not in ITS.

Lawrence

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Thanks Lawrence, the car is stock all the way through except for deleting the A/C and PS, stripping the interior and upgrading the gauges. I'm wondering what I would need to upgrade to get it on the track. I know now I can take it to track events. But, when I am ready to race other than roll cage, fuel cell could I race the car in its stock form for the experience?

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Vince@Dec 27 2005, 02:07 PM
Thanks Lawrence, the car is stock all the way through except for deleting the A/C and PS, stripping the interior and upgrading the gauges. I'm wondering what I would need to upgrade to get it on the track. I know now I can take it to track events. But, when I am ready to race other than roll cage, fuel cell could I race the car in its stock form for the experience?

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Vince,

Unless you could get the car w/o power steering, I believe that you would have to put that back. Also, you are not required to run a fuel cell in IT.

Other than needing a cage, and the other related safety equipment, you can run the car totally bone stock. Keep in mind, that even in IT prep, a base 944 is not competitive, and that ITS is a very fast and competitive class. I think you might be better served by picking up an inexpensive car that's already built. A good cage and race seat w/ the associated belts, etc. will probably run you $2500 at a minimum. That's a long way towards a built car (IIRC, that guy in Ohio wanted $4k for his RX7).