Is this an ITB car?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by zracre@Dec 12 2005, 01:50 PM
Isn't the Prelude carbureted?? I say 2315# ...no more than 2400 or it would be a slug. what are the rabbit gti specs?

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I don't think so...my 1986 Civic Si beater has EFI...

AB

[gran racing]

First to answer the Prelude question. The non-si ’86 & ’87 version was carbed. Both the ’86 & ’87 Prelude si has fuel injection.

Why not compare it to the 1987 Prelude Si at 110hp in ITB at 2450?

Oh, ya...HUGE brakes compared to both cars...lots of factors to consider.

In my opinion, the Golf is a bit too light at its current weight. And no, I’m not just comparing it to the Prelude but other benchmark ITB cars.

The Prelude: 207 front (vented disk) and 208 rear (solid disk)

The Golf III: 257 front (vented disk) and 227 rear

What size brakes does the Mini have?

[Knestis]

But Accords took top ITB places at the ARRC!

Oh, wait. Never mind.

K

PS - the ARRC-winning car is for sale for $8000. That seems like a pretty damned good deal right now, since I spent yesterday cutting the passenger side floor out of the "new" Golf shell. Barf.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by gran racing@Dec 12 2005, 02:44 PM

In my opinion, the Golf is a bit too light at its current weight. And no, I’m not just comparing it to the Prelude but other benchmark ITB cars.

The Prelude: 207 front (vented disk) and 208 rear (solid disk)

The Golf III: 257 front (vented disk) and 227 rear

What size brakes does the Mini have?

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Mini Cooper: 276mm front Vented and 239 rear solid ! ! !

[ddewhurst]

***Let's not hijack this thing too much...***

Andy, why the ^ comment. I asked a couple real questions for which you answered neither. To my humble knowledge the RX-7 12A legal rwhp is give or take a bit @ 125.

If I am wrong with the 125 rwhp please enlighten me as to your real numbers.

What is the IT preped Mini rwhp ?

Why is the recipe a secret ?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by ddewhurst@Dec 12 2005, 06:15 PM
***Let's not hijack this thing too much...***

Andy, why the ^ comment. I asked a couple real questions for which you answered neither. To my humble knowledge the RX-7 12A legal rwhp is give or take a bit @ 125.

If I am wrong with the 125 rwhp please enlighten me as to your real numbers.

What is the IT preped Mini rwhp ?

Why is the recipe a secret ?

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The RX-7 would be one of the most powerful cars in ITB @ between 125 and 130whp. That about 150-155 crank hp.

Estimates on the Mini would have it at around 140...so with a 10-15whp advantage, the RX-7 should have to weigh more, everything else being equal. Both cars have their weeknesses in the suspension area.

The 'recipe' isn't secret. We have shown example after example on this site for a while now. It's a process that is very dynamic, not so much a formula.

What I do know for a fact is the Mini's RWHP numbers in IT prep...zero. :P

AB

[Bill Miller]

Andy,

I'm not a rotary guy, but those kinds of gains seem pretty big, for IT prep. Assuming 115hp on a stock 12A, you're saying that you can get 35-40hp w/ IT prep? That's a 30-35% gain w/ IT prep. I didn't know you could squeeze that much out of one. I'm also surprised that w/ sooooo many of these cars around, why there isn't quite a bit of actual data out there, so that you don't have to speculate as to how much power a 12A w/ IT prep makes.

It's a process that is very dynamic, not so much a formula.

Why did I get an icky feeling when I read that??

[Dave Zaslow]

I love the idea of the base Mini being added to ITB. Since there are some now running in the Northeast in EP, perhaps someone can get some info from their efforts on what can be expected in IT trim.

Dave Z

Who also had to piece together the floorpan in a Golf III....

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 13 2005, 03:26 AM
Andy,

I'm not a rotary guy, but those kinds of gains seem pretty big, for IT prep. Assuming 115hp on a stock 12A, you're saying that you can get 35-40hp w/ IT prep? That's a 30-35% gain w/ IT prep. I didn't know you could squeeze that much out of one. I'm also surprised that w/ sooooo many of these cars around, why there isn't quite a bit of actual data out there, so that you don't have to speculate as to how much power a 12A w/ IT prep makes.
Why did I get an icky feeling when I read that??

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Bill, the killer is that the car makes 101hp stock. We have actual data. Jake can step in and help out. Maybe even Rickey, should he care to share his numbers. The reason I have a range is because there needs to be some slop...

The dynamic part of the process, as you know, is the 'adders' piece. Not the same for everyone - but a piece that take into account the intangibles like aero, brake sizes, drivetrain layout, suspension design, etc.

AB

[Bill Miller]

Wow Andy, 50%+ hp increase w/ an IT prep???? I know those things really respond to porting, but none of that's allowed in IT (and I can see why, if you can get that much extra hp w/o it). But, from what I know, the hp numbers are in line w/ what the Volvos are making (granted, w/o anywhere near the torque). Not to mention that the Volvos have HUGE brakes.


And I know the adders part varies by car, but it was just the way it sounded.

[ddewhurst]

***What I do know for a fact is the Mini's RWHP numbers in IT prep...zero.***

Andy, I agree with you on the ^ comment. <_<

155 crank HP vrs 101 OEM crank HP. That would be a 54% crank HP gain. Someone please help me with these numbers.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by ddewhurst@Dec 13 2005, 08:31 AM
***What I do know for a fact is the Mini&#39;s RWHP numbers in IT prep...zero.***

Andy, I agree with you on the ^ comment. <_<

155 crank HP vrs 101 OEM crank HP. That would be a 54% crank HP gain. Someone please help me with these numbers.

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Help you how? 125-130whp equates ROUGHLY to 150-155 crank. No?

AB

[Bill Miller]

Man, I said I wasn&#39;t going to do it, but I did it anyway. Got sucked into trying to derive hp numbers, and then trying to equate them. I hate when that happens!!!

[JeffYoung]

Rotaries respond extraordinarily well to exhaust work. I&#39;ve heard the 150 hp at the crank number and I am pretty sure there are dyno plots out there to prove it.

Rick, Jake? Care to jump in? Although, I don&#39;t think Rick reads ITB threads -- makes him recoil in horror when you talk about his 1st Gen in ITB.

[ddewhurst]

***I don&#39;t think Rick reads ITB threads -- makes him recoil in horror when you talk about his 1st Gen in ITB.***

Jeff, my 1st gen & I are not even close to what I have read about Rick & I also get somewhat wound up about going to B. I&#39;ll do cheap E Production rather than down switch with adding 220 pounds & 6 inch wheels. Hell, I will not go to B with 220 pounds & 7 inch wheels. Been thinking about going to the dark side.

Andy, did you Flat folks do any 12A&#39;s ? Numbers man, numbers, Dyno data sheet............. I have a hard time with a 54% gain with zero porting but then I ain&#39;t a motor builder.

[lateapex911]

OK...been working a lot of hours, just got home and fell asleep reading the piston thread!

I think that 110 was the agreed upon stock number for the main run of 1st gen 12As.

My (now blown) engine put about 130 down at the wheels on a Clayton dyno. Claytons are know to be a bit strong. I haven&#39;t had the new motor on the same (or any) dyno yet as I was busy bending the Glens guardrails while "breaking in" the new motor, so I can&#39;t give you numbers on that.

Prep is a long primary exhaust, with a one off prototype header, and a Yaw carb, regulator, etc.

Mike at ISC told me that seeing 120 at the wheels on the standard Dynojet is about all I can hope for....

Paul Yaw thinks there is more...130 or so. Susko agrees.

Torque? LOL...some can&#39;t break 100. Mine was about 106 if I recall correctly. I have seen numbers in the low 100 range on 3 seperate dynos.

A little math tells you that the crank numbers are close to 150. I have taken my car to some "restricted dB" events, ...and there is no point...it&#39;s like driving an ITD car! The rotaries are VERY backpressure sensitive. My on track experience, (with the now blown 130 hp motor) was soundly walked by many other 1st gens in Atlanta, so the either the Clayton was optimistic or guys are getting even more than 130 at the wheels from theirs

The volvos, from what I have heard, are in the 160 plus range, with significantly more torque.

[Gary L]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Dec 14 2005, 05:45 AM

The volvos, from what I have heard, are in the 160 plus range, with significantly more torque.

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I want one of those engines for my car. I may be naive, but I just don&#39;t think anyone is actually getting that much hp from the venerable B20E... at least, not legally.