IS300 in ITS?

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Bruce Shafer@Sep 16 2005, 05:49 PM
, then there was an attempt to raise it to 2950. I believe somebody then read the current rules at the time to the CB and the attempt was rescinded. That is my take on what went down.

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Sounds like the same person that rescinded that also recommended a restrictor plate that did nothing.

R

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by RacerBowie@Sep 16 2005, 01:03 PM
...and when those very same top-level spec miatas come to Road Atlanta, they are ALWAYS slower than my ITA Miata, and I am about 1.4 seconds or so off the fastest guys in ITA, who are another 3 seconds off the ITS BMWs. (Spec Miata lap record at Road Atlanta is 1:45.3, ITA Record is a 1:43.3, ITS record is a 1:40.2)

Maybe the ITS cars in your region just suck? We have the closest thing IT has to a national championship in our region (ATL), so we see a pretty darn good representation of no-compromises cars. If SMs are beating A cars, the A cars aren't developed or driven well. If SMs are beating S cars, the S cars SUCK!

Bowie
ITA Miata

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Well, I was going to suggest something along the lines that the S guys in his region need to do THEIR homework, not the non BMW guys in the rest of the country, as suggested by the original poster.............

But I think you got the point across just fine, LOL.

In the bigger picture guys, that post highlights how dangerous it is to start trotting out results. Unless you compare ALOT of results, and you know the cars, and you look at the same cars at different tracks and you know the conditions, and the drivers, you can get in trouble. Like our West coast friend has done.

His "Mazdas rule at Mazda raceway" in ITA is a case in point. Sounds like Utopia to me, but how can it be???

Fact: an RX-7 has a live rear axle, a strut front, fair brakes, is impossible to balance fr or lr, and makes, at the most, 130 legal hp, with about 102 lb ft of tq., and weighs just under 2400 as raced.

Fact: an Integra has a much better front suspension, as good or better brakes, and makes 155 hp with about 135 lb ft of tq., and races 100 lbs heavier.

I'm sorry, but a car with a better overall package, and 30% more torque, has NO REASON to be slower! (I have a friend who deleloped the heck out of an ITA RX-7, and gave up. Got an Acura...first time on the track with a stock engine and a half baked suspension he was more than a second a minute faster per lap)

There are two answers to the Mazda dominence out west...they are either illegal, or the masses of them have convinced newcomers that it is the car to have and the other cars haven't been fully developed. If it were me in that area, I'd go to the ARRCs and buy Serras car, come home and clean up.

So, it's physics when it comes to classing.

As a organizational body, we must get the physics and the dynamic characteristics of the cars right, apply that to a standard for every class, and let the drivers and preparers decide the results.

The results should have as little to do with the physical properties of each car as is possible, because they have been classed appropriately.

If it were me I would re-write the clause in the begining that says "There is no guarantee of competiveness" to say, "There is no guarantee of competiveness, but we will try really hard to get things close. Have fun!"

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by JeffYoung@Sep 16 2005, 01:54 PM
Bruce, I've probably been too beligerent on this issue. Let me try something more constructive.

Would you guys (the Bimmer crowd) be ok with no restrictor and 3050 lb race weight?

That seems like the correct, fair result to me. I frankly think the restrictor was a bad idea.

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Jeff, you crack me up! You're not feeling ignored, are you??

[JeffYoung]

LOL.......no, I'm just stupidly persistent......

[Bruce Shafer]

Originally posted by JeffYoung@Sep 16 2005, 01:54 PM
Bruce, I've probably been too beligerent on this issue. Let me try something more constructive.

Huh? Haven't noticed.

Would you guys (the Bimmer crowd) be ok with no restrictor and 3050 lb race weight?

I'll settle for 2860 and not a pound more! :angry:

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Bruce Shafer@Sep 16 2005, 07:14 PM
I'll settle for 2860 and not a pound more! :angry:

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Well of course you would... the numbers would predict that as well...

[Bruce Shafer]

Originally posted by Banzai240@Sep 16 2005, 03:20 PM
Well of course you would... the numbers would predict that as well...

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Hey, where did you find that rolleyes emoticon? That's the one I needed...

[Knestis]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Sep 16 2005, 06:41 PM
... As a organizational body, we must get the physics and the dynamic characteristics of the cars right, apply that to a standard for every class, and let the drivers and preparers decide the results.

The results should have as little to do with the physical properties of each car as is possible, because they have been classed appropriately. ...

The crowd goes wild!

:P

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Bruce Shafer+Sep 16 2005, 03:14 PM-->

Huh? Haven't noticed.
I'll settle for 2860 and not a pound more! :angry:

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[/b]

From page 2, I asked:

<!--QuoteBegin-lateapex911
First, I assume nobody racing a BMW wants to have either a real or a perceived overdog, right? I mean, whats the point in winning if everyone walks away saying, "Well, I was first in class...NON BMW class that is.,....." right? It must be a rather hollow victory for a BMW driver....

So, IF there were restrictions to be made, would the E36 guys rather it be all weight, or an SIR to limit the power (not low end torque) to a level more in line with the class targets?
(The Z car and the RX-7)

So, lets try it again........., just for giggles, lets ask the E36 guys, IF the car needs to have it&#39;s wings clipped, how would you prefer it?

A- Weight- the car goes thru the process, known rear wheel hp gets plugged in, and then the adders and subtractors get applied. The result will aim for the car to be close to the "bogeys" in the class, and will take into account the usual variables such as susp type, balance, handling, braking and unique engine attributes, and will be tempered by the fact that at the increased weight, any characterisic strengths that might result in "adders" might not be as effective, reducing the need to apply as many, or as strong, "adders"

B- SIR...the Single Air Restrictor. The F3000 style hole thru which all air must pass. It&#39;s an optimized shape that the engine doesn&#39;t see until it&#39;s limit is reached, and then thats it, the curve is flattened. The board would spec a SIR to trim power levels to an appropriate point to match the bogey targets. A major advantage of this approach is that engines that are not making the same power as the strongest engines, (those used by the ITAC in the weight setting procedure are of course, the strongest known legitimate examples), will see no effect of the SIR if they are below the desired level. In other words, some guys won&#39;t know these things exist. Cost is negligible in the big picture.

C- Both. A little this, a little that.

Thoughts?

For the purpose of this question, lets just presume "D- nothing" isn&#39;t an option.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Bruce Shafer@Sep 16 2005, 03:14 PM
Huh? Haven&#39;t noticed.
I&#39;ll settle for 2860 and not a pound more! :angry:

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And if you end up w/ more than that??

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by rlearp@Sep 16 2005, 08:46 AM



I just don&#39;t think it is arguable about the weight - the car weighs much less than street trim and it is the only car to my knowledge that is like that. 10% less than street weight is a nice classification - I wish I had that on my JH. I&#39;m classed at 2240, most JH street cars with all the stuff weigh in at 2170-2200. If I could have 10% off my street weight of around 2200lbs I&#39;d be at 1980lbs. I think at that weight with a 2L DOHC 140 hp stock 4 banger, a lot of folks would suddenly become interested in JHs.

Just like they are with BMWs at 2850lbs and 175 stock hp.

Ron

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Ron,

Don&#39;t get caught up w/ curb weight, or where the race weight is w/ respect to the curb weight. Especially now that the ballast limit is gone. As I think Darin said, the only time it comes into play, is if it&#39;s realistic enough to get a car to a spec weight, based on what the starting curb weight is.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Sep 14 2005, 02:58 PM

Jeff...The curb weight is taken into consideration in the process, but the question is usually, "Can this car make the weight it needs to be?"

The process defines the race weight based on creating a competitive model that fits the performance envelope.

Some cars might need to weigh, lets say, 2500 pounds to be competitive in a certain class, but it is known that they could never actually get down that low, so, the next class down is looked at, and the process is repeated for that class.

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or maybe it was me that said it......

[Banzai240]

Guys... PLEASE keep in mind here, that, regardless of what this conversation appears to be about, this whole deal is NOT just about the BMW... That model just happens to stand out and is easy to talk about ...

This is really about ALL of IT... I can assure you that there is WAY more in the works here than simply adjusting the BMW... If anything gets done (still an "IF" at this point), it needs to be a PACKAGE DEAL, designed to make some pretty significant adjustments to IT in general...

In other words, there are many, many cars that are out of whack, on both sides of the middle... The only "right" thing to do would be to attempt to correct IT, not just the BMW...

Like I&#39;ve said before, there is no "singling" out of this car going on on the ITAC... If you&#39;ll give us the time, I have a feeling that you&#39;ll be pleased what we are attempting to accomplish, and hopefully even more pleased with the results, should they get implemented... Be patient...

[mlytle]

Originally posted by JeffYoung@Sep 16 2005, 05:54 PM
Bruce, I&#39;ve probably been too beligerent on this issue. Let me try something more constructive.

Would you guys (the Bimmer crowd) be ok with no restrictor and 3050 lb race weight?

That seems like the correct, fair result to me. I frankly think the restrictor was a bad idea.

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duh, of course not! you want 200lbs added to your car? more tire wear, more brake wear, more clutch stress, more load on already underdesigned suspension components that we can&#39;t beef up. anybody want to be outside us in a high speed curve when the inner front control arm bolt snaps? how about when the cheesy lower rear control arms just fold up? besides, we already had to invest in restrictors and the associated tuning and testing costs. quit costing us more money for no reason. adding weight will cost more in maint, and more in setup and tuning. i put in a lot of time and practice days getting the car closer to where i want it. dropping 200lbs in the passenger foot well will screw everything up. anyone else with any other kind of car want to redo their setup and retune their engine every freakin&#39; year? come on, just because we drive bmw&#39;s doesn&#39;t mean we are made of money. you guys just trying to price us out of the competition?

i thought the concept of pca&#39;s was to make a change, evaluate the results for a while and then reevluate if needed. where is the evaluation of the results? the restritor plate did make a difference (even after a bunch of dyno tuning time).

how about instead of continually trying to add crap to the bmw&#39;s, subtracting stuff from the so called "underdogs"? everyone likes going faster, nobody likes going slower and adding more costs to racing. like rob said...speed up the slow cars, don&#39;t slow down the fast cars.

[Catch22]

Even as a non-BMW driver I have to admit that 200lbs is a pretty tough pill to swallow. Thats a load.

As I mentioned before, wouldn&#39;t you get pretty much the same result if you added 100lbs to the BMW and took 100lbs OUT of some of the other cars. I don&#39;t pretend to know alot about all of the cars in S, but I do know I&#39;ve seen lots of lead in RX7s, Preludes, and Integras.

That evens things up and helps reduce costs for everybody instead of just adding it to the BMWs. And lets face it guys, weigh = cost.

How many non-BMW cars out there are carrying alot of ballast (around 100lbs or more)?
Lets start a list...

I&#39;m a Honda guy, so I know The Integra GSR, Prelude VTEC and Prelude non VTEC can all remove 100lbs or more (assuming a 180lb driver).
I know many of the RX7s carry lots of ballast, but I don&#39;t know how much.

There have been hints here that sweeping changes are coming for more than just the BMW. Maybe this is what is being discussed (lets hope so).

BTW - If the restrictor hurt your BMW on the dyno then you need to make some phone calls. You&#39;re in a minority.

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by mlytle@Sep 17 2005, 02:10 AM
where is the evaluation of the results? the restritor plate did make a difference (even after a bunch of dyno tuning time).

Ummmm... NOTHING has been done at all, nor has it been "recommended"... We felt it was prudent to wait until later in the year when we could then analyze the results...

Also, we have it on very good authority that the top notch BMW teams have found a legal way to GAIN 7hp WITH the restrictor... As I&#39;ve said above, it&#39;s not that hard to fool the engine into not "seeing" a flat plate restrictor, especially one that was a minimal reduction in the first place and when this point in the engine was NOT the choking point in the first place...

Originally posted by mlytle@Sep 17 2005, 02:10 AM
how about instead of continually trying to add crap to the bmw&#39;s, subtracting stuff from the so called "underdogs"?

Doesn&#39;t ANYONE read what I&#39;ve been posting??? :119:

Originally posted by mlytle@Sep 17 2005, 02:10 AM
everyone likes going faster, nobody likes going slower and adding more costs to racing. like rob said...speed up the slow cars, don&#39;t slow down the fast cars.

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Well, this is NOT Production... You can&#39;t just "speed up" a car... The idea mentioned above about adding to some, and taking away from others, is more in line with what needs to be done...

If you had read what I wrote, I flat out said the idea is to bring everyone toward the "middle"...

The BMW needs one of two things for this to happen... 1) Have quite a bit of weight added, to at LEAST 3100lbs, or 2) Restrict the HP output of the engine to 220hp and leave it at it&#39;s current weight...

The Single Inlet Restrictors are basically invisible to the engine up to the point where they need to be visible, so throttle response, etc., it not suppose to be effected. Additionally, with this kind of restrictor, there is a pretty solid formula that essentially tells you precisely what size the restrictor needs to be for a given motor to limit it to a given HP... They basically go "sonic" at a particular airflow, and simply won&#39;t pass any more volume of air... NO more air, no more HP...

We are aware that other factors come into play, but by and large, the largest is power output... Everything else adds fractions of a second after that...

However, at this point, NOTHING has even been suggested "officially" in any of these directions, so this is all just shop talk at this point...

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by mlytle@Sep 16 2005, 10:10 PM
duh, of course not! you want 200lbs added to your car? more tire wear, more brake wear, more clutch stress, ......... adding weight will cost more in maint, and more in setup and tuning. ...........

So, i guess you like option "B" better?

......how about instead of continually trying to add crap to the bmw&#39;s, subtracting stuff from the so called "underdogs"? everyone likes going faster, nobody likes going slower and adding more costs to racing. like rob said...speed up the slow cars, don&#39;t slow down the fast cars.

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No, I think that strategy is flawed.

First, I think adding weight is cheaper than removing it. In both cases the car needs a new setup, but thats it. Pulling weight out is pricey.

Second, lets do the math....let&#39;s say the E36 needs to weigh 3100, or 250 lbs more....to be equal to the "bogey"...
{if the whp is 217, that works out to a p/w ratio of 14.3, the RX-7, which is reportedly putting down a max of 180, weighs 2680 for a p/w ratio of 14.9}
(( so actually the E36 would need to weigh 3233 if we use 217 and want hit the same p/w ratio of the RX-7))

Taking the strategy of leaving the fast guys alone means the E36 remains at 2850, right? At 217 whp that works out to a 13.1 p/w ratio.

So, to make the RX-7 equal, it needs to weigh 2360..... a nice drop of 320 lbs.

So, then, what about the guys who have a hard time running with the RX-7?

I just don&#39;t see the logic of leaving ONE car alone in the class, but requiring the entire class to drop hundreds of pounds to equalize!

First, it&#39;s impossible.

Second, it is VERY expensive... every part that is optional now gets reengineered for function AND lightness. Things that were cheap now need to be made of lightweight, and expensive materials. There is cost associated with going thru the whole car, as well as the componentry itself.

And requiring every car in the class to do it except one is clearly not in the best interests of the class at large.

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Sep 17 2005, 05:17 AM
And requiring every car in the class to do it except one is clearly not in the best interests of the class at large.

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In addition to what Jake said... It simply wouldn&#39;t make sense... especially when there is a good group of cars that equate well compared to each other just a notch BELOW the E36... As has been stated numerous times... this car is an outlier... not the only one, but definately part of that group...

If it make you feel any better, the 944S is there as well, though to a lesser degree... Possibly the Mercedes 2.3 16V as well, but we don&#39;t have enough data on that one to make a valid detemination...

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Banzai240@Sep 17 2005, 01:38 AM
... Possibly the Mercedes 2.3 16V as well, but we don&#39;t have enough data on that one to make a valid detemination...

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......yet..

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Banzai240@Sep 17 2005, 05:38 AM
Possibly the Mercedes 2.3 16V as well, but we don&#39;t have enough data on that one to make a valid detemination...

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You know I&#39;m a sucker for the orphan cars, and, I have been on Ebay a lot lately looking for a particular 16V 4 pot ooops.........