Attn: First gen guys...

[RacerBowie]

At Rd. Atlanta at the ARRC: My best lap 1:45.491 (On old Kumhos) Chip Herr set fast SM lap time with a 1:46.607 (toyos or hoosiers?)

At roebling rd, my best qual. time was a 1.23.7xx (2001 SIC) SM lap record: 1.26.1 (Matthew Pombo, 4/25/04)

At CMP I hold the lap record with a 1:55.980 set in May of '01, but have done a 1:54.0xx in qualifying That is a real lame duck record, as it has been beaten A LOT, but not in a SARRC race. (Haven't run there since '02, haven't been fast there since '01, I feel confident I could get down into the 1:52's).

SM lap record there is Jim Daniels 1:53.984 set in feb of '02, about 50% of the lap records of the track were set that weekend.

So I must suck at CMP! I still think there is at least another second in the car/driver combo, I just need to finish finding it!

Bowie

[ITSRX7]

David,

I have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

I am asking you why you would 'question' Jake's motives as I would have the same motives if I had a car in that position.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[ITSRX7]

Double

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited October 15, 2004).]

[ddewhurst]

Andy, like I suggested Jake is a big boy & I'm sure he can handle his own affairs. If Jake sends me his accomplishments in his ITA RX-7 fine if he sends nothing I will continue to breath.

Have Fun
David
CenDiv

[Hotshoe]

Bowie:

I know how you are at CMP ..... LOL

[RacerBowie]

Rick: Yes, yes you do!

I beleive I still owe you an apology dinner from that time I brain-farted and tagged you going into 11. I have my head much farther removed from my ass these days than I did that one time!!! Although we did have some fun races there...

Bowie

[Hotshoe]

Bowie:

Sure have missed seeing you out there this year. I was side by side with P1 ITS one time this year at CMP at the finish.

Mike and I have had some fun races this year. Going to try on a SM at VIR for the 13hr. Should be fun. Are you going?

Can you see me in ITB ???? LOL

[This message has been edited by Hotshoe (edited October 15, 2004).]

[gran racing]

Maybe it's just because I'm a Honda guy, but I'm totally confused here. The "what does Jake have to gain" by the car being moved to ITB really threw me off. When I wrote my request to have the Prelude moved to ITB, guess what? I had something to gain. Why is that bad? Don't most people who write letters to the comp. board have something to gain?

Part II - why would anyone be opposed to having the car moved to a class where it could be more competitive? I heard of the same thing with the idea of the MR2 being moved to ITB. Someone that owns an MR2 didn't want the car moved to ITB. What?!? I've been thinking about these notions for a few days. As an outsider (not saying this is the case here) the only thing I can think of is that the competition in ITB is faster then in ITA.

Darin - you get many of these e-mails. Have you been able to figure out why people would resist these moves? (That is people against the move that drive the car as well) I can understand the weight / cage issue, but nothing more then that.

Do you really think going from a 7" wheel to a 6" wheel will have that much of an impact? Just curious, how much time do you think it change? Even on a handling track, I still don't think it will change things much at all. And on many tracks it may even cause times to decrease. Lime Rock Park, a handling track, may see a slight advantage for 7" rims. I have been told by several good resouces that have done testing at Watkins Glen, a longer course and more about HP, that a narrower tire is actually faster on this track.

Oh, 130 HP at the wheels? Is that supposed to be bad? I would kill for 130 HP at the wheels. I do understand the torque issue though.

The cars to have...often times this is created by one person racing a car and having success. Take the Integra here in the NER. Anthony built the car, everyone saw what it could do and followed his lead. Now if he built a miata, maybe that would be seen as the car to have.

I personally would like to see the RX7 (also the MR2 for that matter) moved to ITB. Do I think it needs some weight? Yes. How much? That's a tough one.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[This message has been edited by gran racing (edited October 15, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

Bowie...good stuff! How many guys are there, to your knowledge in a Miata that have been able to make it work? Your times at Atlanta...do you see possible improvement there? I'm curious, obviously, because a lot of fast ITA guys have run that track, so the ITA times are very meaningful there.

I hadn't dismissed the Miata at all...actually I was watching it in the back of my mind as a possible option....IF it looked like it could hunt. So...I run against Serra (fastest race lap at the ARRCs last year), and some other guys who run right with him every race...can the Miata run in that crowd? Nice job BTW, thanks for bringing me up to speed.

Hotshoe....you've run at Atlanta? What are your times there?

David, Ok, i'll 'finn' myself...not sure exactly what that is...but hey, I'll go along.

First- I'm trying to get a global understanding of what a legal RX-7 cna be expected to do vis a vis the competition in A and B. Whch is different than what I, and MY RX-7 can do.

If the result of the question is that ITA isn't the right class, then I want to look at options. (Philosophically speaking, I perfer inter-marque classes.)

AS an owner of the car I want to have a shot, on a good day of a win against my competitors. If I want, I could go run in EP locally, win some trophies, and even beat some EP cars . But it isn't just about trophies. We have a broad inter-marque class structure in IT, and the RX-7 appears to not have a fair chance.

While I enjoy a good race with a car from any class, much as you do, I far prefer to be racing a car that is in my class, and I would prefer to be doing it on a "level" basis, in a class with more than 4 or 5 entries.

That is it for my motives.

I have no reason to hide my times etc, so here they are:

They are, of course, spotty! Lime Rock: I have seen the mid 1:04s. Road Atlanta..between breaking in a brand new engine, finding why the toe kept changing (idler arm) and testing the walls, and a stuck float in the carb, I think I saw the high 48s?? or maybe the 9s. Watkins Glen..too long ago to be relevant..or remember! Ask me next week! And NHIS..1:18s. Pocono....again, too long ago to recall.

As for positions..we often have ITA fields of of 20 -35, and I qualify in the upper half, and finish in the 5th -12th place generally. Each year it is worse as more new cars enter ITA. Often I am the lead RX-7 of about 3 - 8 of us. And yes, there was one win this year in a biblical downpoar. I started 9th on a field of 25. Second AND third overall were ITC cars!

Why is it that you will race another class if the car is put in B? Is it because you like the "marque" nature of IT-7? What if IT-7 were kept as an option in your area? Just trying to understand...

As an interesting contrast, I spoke with an ITA driver today who loves the idea of the car moving to B...he would sell his Acura and build an RX-7 if it happens and the weight is right....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[lateapex911]

By David Dewherst:
***But......you are just one guy.***
Jake, Bowie is just one guy, Steve Sargis is just one guy, Adam Mally is just one guy, Tom Feller is just one guy, shall I go on ?

My point, and I apologose that it wasn't as clear as it could have been, was that Bowies success is cool, but I am unaware of many others who can run at the front of a fast ITA field. Trying to learn here...

I am unfamiliar with the names you mention...perhaps it would be more illuminating if you added info...like what they drive and what they do that makes them relevant...

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by gran racing:
Maybe it's just because I'm a Honda guy, but I'm totally confused here.

yup..the Honda part is the problem! Sell it and the world will come into focus instantly!

Oh, 130 HP at the wheels? Is that supposed to be bad? I would kill for 130 HP at the wheels. I do understand the torque issue though.

Well, the thing about the rotary is the time it takes to get there! The torque numbers are often hovering around 100... ever watch an RX-7 on a start? Often it gets a small jump (driver reaction) then it gets swept up by cars with torque. Think of it as a bit of a wind up toy.

The cars to have...often times this is created by one person racing a car and having success. Take the Integra here in the NER. Anthony built the car, everyone saw what it could do and followed his lead. Now if he built a miata, maybe that would be seen as the car to have.

Very true...but not if he wasn't up front at the ARRCs!

I personally would like to see the RX7 (also the MR2 for that matter) moved to ITB.

And for the record Dave, you race against RX-7s all the time now...how do you do against them? (My 'motive' to the question is to show that Dave is being altruistic with his comments)

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited October 16, 2004).]

[GEO46]

Why is it that you will race another class if the car is put in B? Is it because you like the "marque" nature of IT-7? What if IT-7 were kept as an option in your area? Just trying to understand...

As an interesting contrast, I spoke with an ITA driver today who loves the idea of the car moving to B...he would sell his Acura and build an RX-7 if it happens and the weight is right....

[/B]

Okay, good question there. As a former racer, soon to be current racer at WHRRI, where we do reconize IT-7, I just had this discussion with a fellow IT-7 racer.

What do we do if the SCCA re-classes the RX-7 to ITB? Well, we think that it would be best to keep the 7's a stand alone class. The reasoning is simple. Except for one or two "Volvo's from Hell", The 7's dominate the ITB/IT7 race. Granted, smaller wheels, and added weight would bring some of the other B's closer.

Keep in mind though that WHRRI is predominately a handling track. On a larger level, yes, I would like to see the 7's reclassified to B.

For comparitive lap times, you can go to www.waterfordhills.com
and look at the results yourself.

Just my puny little .02 cents worth.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by GEO46:
Except for one or two "Volvo's from Hell", The 7's dominate the ITB/IT7 race. Granted, smaller wheels, and added weight would bring some of the other B's closer.

And unless "Volvo's from Hell" implies that they are illegal - which I DO NOT think you are saying, then the RX-7 is still not the cream of the crop in ITB.

Right? Smells like an ITB car to me in todays environment.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by GEO46:
What do we do if the SCCA re-classes the RX-7 to ITB? Well, we think that it would be best to keep the 7's a stand alone class.

I'm curious as to how many out there think this would be a reasonable solution to this issue??? Just leave the 7's to run IT7... How acceptable would that be to those IT racers racing 7's???

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
I'm curious as to how many out there think this would be a reasonable solution to this issue??? Just leave the 7's to run IT7... How acceptable would that be to those IT racers racing 7's???

IMHO, not acceptable at all. If RX-7 counts in my area were not high enough to merit the IT7 separation, I would be SOL.

The IT7 class works great locally, this car needs help GLOBALLY.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[This message has been edited by Andy Bettencourt (edited October 17, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

Agreed. From a competitors view, I see it as an easy way out. I didn't choose IT to run in 2 or 4 car fields. (OK, occasionally as high as 6 or 8)

Also, IT-7 isn't available everywhere. Some regions shun extra classes.

I remember talking to someone about why IT-7 never got started in NER. He said..."why would anyone want a girlie class?"

Ouch....

Well, it's far from an ideal solution, thats for sure.



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ddewhurst]

Jake I looked at the 2003 ARRC ITA & IT7 qualifying & race times. I also viewed the times you posted of you own. Using ARRC numbers rounded to the whole second.
The fast ARRC ITA qualifying time was 5 seconds faster than the fast IT7 qualifying time. The fast ITA race time was 3 seconds faster than the fast IT7 race time. With those numbers in mind at what closeness of numbers would you be willing to stay in ITA. Within 1 sec, 2 sec, 3 sec, 4 sec of the ARRC ITA fast race times ?

***Also, IT-7 isn't available everywhere. Some regions shun extra classes.***

With transponders my question to those that shun extra classes would be why do you shun extra classes.

***I remember talking to someone about why IT-7 never got started in NER. He said..."why would anyone want a girlie class?"***

Maybe you should be more selective in who you select to talk to. (Ya, on the internet also)

***I am unfamiliar with the names you mention...perhaps it would be more illuminating if you added info...like what they drive and what they do that makes them relevant...***

As you well know (I would suspect) all three of them run production, they have top prepared cars & they most times lead & leave their class.
---------------------------------------------
To all.......

With transponders if the ITAC reclasses the RX-7 to ITB why not leave the car classed in ITA parallel with the reclass to ITB. Let the driver decide which class she/he will run.

Someone previously posted using the 13B in the 1st gen. No comments. Why no comments ? Would the 13B (carb)be to fast for the current winners in ITA ? Andy ? Darin ? Geo ? Punter ?

Do you people who have a desire to be reclassed to ITB expect to be reclassed as winners out of the box ? If so, are the current ITB classed car drivers going to be disgruntled ? What are the current classed cars in ITB going to have to say ?

Maybe this thread should be opened up on a forum where ITB folks will be part of the dialog. I would bet they don't come looking on the Mazda forum. If they do look they are darn quite.

Do you folks notice That no one from the CenDiv area 4 IT7 group is talking. No one from the South East IT7 group is talking. No one from the MidWest IT7 group is talking. The SoPac has Spec-7 & Pro-7. Texas has Spec-7. Dose that make any of you think Hummmmmmmm, why are they being so quite. I would need to re-look at who the people posting on this thread are but my guess is they have no IT7 group. Because there are unhappy ITA 1st gens in the North East Division don't mean that all the 1st gen ITA owners in the SCCA are unhappy.

Have Fun
David

[miketrier]

I am from the Midwest Division and was one of the people who got IT7 adopted. We did it because a well-prepared and driven RX7 isn't close to being competitive in ITA against a similarly prepared and driven computer car. It moved to ITB, the IT7 class should go away. My car weighs in at about 2390 after a race with me weigning 195. I could drop a few pounds with an aluminum radiator but don't know where I could lose much more weight. With 6 inch rims, I don't think much more weight would be needed.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Jake I looked at the 2003 ARRC ITA & IT7 qualifying & race times. I also viewed the times you posted of you own. Using ARRC numbers rounded to the whole second.
The fast ARRC ITA qualifying time was 5 seconds faster than the fast IT7 qualifying time. The fast ITA race time was 3 seconds faster than the fast IT7 race time. With those numbers in mind at what closeness of numbers would you be willing to stay in ITA. Within 1 sec, 2 sec, 3 sec, 4 sec of the ARRC ITA fast race times ?

***Also, IT-7 isn't available everywhere. Some regions shun extra classes.***

With transponders my question to those that shun extra classes would be why do you shun extra classes.

***I remember talking to someone about why IT-7 never got started in NER. He said..."why would anyone want a girlie class?"***

Maybe you should be more selective in who you select to talk to. (Ya, on the internet also)

***I am unfamiliar with the names you mention...perhaps it would be more illuminating if you added info...like what they drive and what they do that makes them relevant...***

As you well know (I would suspect) all three of them run production, they have top prepared cars & they most times lead & leave their class.

David,

First off, on the Regional response thing: The Northeast posts here OVER 4X the next most active area. Why is that? I don't know.

If you are going to use the ARRC numbers, you will also notice that ITB and IT& are on top of each other. Draw any conclusions from that?

Transponders have nothing to do with it. I have a Sunbeam Tiger. I want my own class. You gonna create the infrastructure and pay me a trophy at every event and recongnize me at the banquest? NOPE. There first has to be demand and then there has to be a request, then action. If the 7 drivers in NER wanted IT7, I bet there could get it approved at the next Comp Board meeting.

The 1st gen 13B car is an FI car. It makes 135 stock HP. It is an EXCELLENT candidate for ITA IMHO. Putting all the 1st gen cars on the same spec line is a whole 'nother can of worms that would create an update/backdate nightmare.

I still fail to see where you are coming from with your posts or questions. Spit it out.

IMHO, the 1st gen 12A car, with 6" wheels at a heavier weight is a great fit for ITB. I think the SPECS and the DATA support this position fully.

Help us out. Stop talking cryptically and state your position and why. All the opinions help us form ours - and the ITAC is VERY split on this issue.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Andy Bettencourt]

Burping CPU...

[This message has been edited by Andy Bettencourt (edited October 17, 2004).]