1.6 output

[Grumpa]

What will a good, LEGAL, IT VW 1.6L motor put out horsepower and torque wise? Anyone have any experience using the zero weight oils and/or 15(?) weight gear lubes?

[SamITC85]

I have heard between 90 and 100Hp with a full out IT motor with a dynoed exhuast and header, but not sure how true that is.

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Sam Rolfe
TBR Motorsports
#85 ITC VW Rabbit
#85 GP Scirocco

[joeg]

At the wheels?

[Bill Miller]

Joe, I think that 100hp number is pretty close, but that's at the crank, not the wheels. Stock hp was 75, but the 1.6 motors got the G-grind cam (.423" lift vs. .406" lift for the stock cam).

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[D. Shine]

I have built and tested many of these. The best ITC motor made 99.6 and the worse was 97.2HP on a SAE corrected dyno @ 230 degrees oil temp,210 degrees water and Mobil One 5W20. The O weight oil would occasionally lose prime and made no more power.The factory stock cam made as much power as the G and overfilling by .5 quarts lost 7 HP These are sensitive to exhaust and tail pipe length. We couldnt make 100 no matter what we tried (legally).

Dick Shine

[Team Rocket]

Originally posted by D. Shine:
The best ITC motor made 99.6 and the worse was 97.2HP on a SAE corrected dyno @ 230 degrees oil temp,210 degrees water and Mobil One 5W20.

Dick Shine

I test, analyze, tune and quote performance for jet engines as a living. The way Dick presented his data is the way to quote performance - whether torque or horsepower, or even thrust. He gives the variability in the data collected (97.2 to 99.6), quotes it at "corrected" conditions (the measured torque is scaled for inlet temperature and pressure, so we're talking apples and apples over a range of ambient temperature) and gives the operating conditions for the engine (oil and water temp). This way, meaningful comparisons can be made between different engines on different days.

Kudos Dick. Your experience shows.

Jim Conaty

[Bill Miller]

Dick,

Thanks much for the data! Would you car to offer your opinion as to why the G-grind gives no performance gains (at least in terms of absolute hp). Also, does it move the hp curve, vs. the stock cam?

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[67ITB]

Welcome “junior member Dick”,
Glad to see that we could pull you away from Vortex for a little while.

Now don’t let this site pull you away from helping Eli go fast while I am gone.

Good to see you post here. So many times I have wanted to here what YOU have to say about a subject here.

NOW GET BACK TO WORK!!!!!

Matt Bal

[D. Shine]

I was as surprised as anyone to find the cam results,but because Gs are available new for little money and good originals are hard to find,I use the G. Of course Matt they make more power on Iraqi gas,but you havent sent any!
The head is really the difference in these motors. The power moves with the head when I swap them.The lesson is to get as fresh and virginal head as you can find! I reject heads that have previously been rebuilt because the seats are sunk too much.Most rebuilders also do a 3 angle grind rendering the head illegal for IT.

[D. Shine]

I was as surprised as anyone to find the cam results,but because Gs are available new for little money and good originals are hard to find,I use the G. Of course Matt they make more power on Iraqi gas,but you havent sent any!
The head is really the difference in these motors. The power moves with the head when I swap them.The lesson is to get as fresh and virginal head as you can find! I reject heads that have previously been rebuilt because the seats are sunk too much.Most rebuilders also do a 3 angle grind rendering the head illegal for IT.

[racer14itc]

Question for you Dick: when you "overfill" by a 1/2 quart, do you mean over the "full" mark on the dipstick? Or is there a specific level you recommend?

Thanks!

MC

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Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp

[D. Shine]

GOOD question Mark! I really should have been more specific. I consider midway between the marks to be full.I use different panscraper setups and cant specify quantity.
I do customize the pump to follow the curve more accurately,but that info is proprietary.Sorry. How is the GP car going? I am building one for next year. Say HI to your dad for me.

Dick Shine

[racer_tim]

Dick, without giving up too many secrets, what would be your recommended space between the bottom of the pan and the bottom of the oil pickup? Basically, how deep should the oil be at the pickup?

If that's a secret, I understand. There must be a fine line between starving and loosing #3 rod bearing and over-filling.

Welcome to the GP ranks. Now I just need to get a job, pay back my wife, and then get the Wabbit fixed and I'll be back out.



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[racer14itc]

Thanks, Dick! The GP car is doing fine, 2 national wins and 2nd place so far this season. We'll be headed to Mid-Ohio for the Runoffs if everything goes well.

My current engine has a puzzling problem: it has too much oil pressure! At start-up, it has 120+ psi. When the oil is warm (220º), it runs about 85-90 psi @ 7000 RPM. I've swapped pumps, still too high. These same pumps gave 60-70 psi hot in the previous motor. I know I'm giving up hp but not sure what to do. It's been like this for two seasons.The oil temps are fine (usually 180-190ºF back to the bearings). Maybe something in the internal oil passages is causing the high pressures?

Hopefully the next motor will be back to normal oil pressure.

I'll say hi to Dad for you. He's got my old ITC/GP Scirocco and plans on rebuilding it to run in HP sometime next season. He started eyeballing my GP car so I gave him something to distract him...

MC

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Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp

[racer_tim]

Marc, what diamer are your connections to your oil cooler? I noticed my oil pressure increase when I had to change coolers (spun #3 rod bearing), and run smaller AN adapters to the cooler.

I too run over 100 psi cold, but down to 40-50 hot @ speed. This on my LP 1.8 11.0:1 motor



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[racer_tim]

fat fingers

[This message has been edited by racer_tim (edited May 18, 2004).]

[racer14itc]

Tim,

They're -10AN fittings everywhere. Exact same oil cooler setup as the previous engine, which had 60-70 psi hot. Built this motor, all new bearings, different block/crank/rods/pistons etc., and now this one has super high oil pressure. Weird.

I read somewhere that if the intermediate shaft bearings' oil supply holes are partially covered (not aligned perfectly with the holes in the block) it can cause high oil pressure but I haven't had this motor apart since I built it to check.

MC

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Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp

[D. Shine]

I always slightly misalign the aux shaft bearings to get more oil to the crank!I machine down the pump body and gears to lower volume and modify the pressure relief. 180-190 degrees is too cold and is keeping the pressure a little high. You are also wasting some power.
10 PSI per 1000RPM just like Smoky said is the best. I have run 8 PSI per 1000 RPM but I dont sleep well when I do this.This is better for Tims 1.8 with larger rod bearings.What oul do you guys use?

Dick Shine

[racer_tim]

Dick, I run Kendall Synthetic. I still have some left over after their Dual Sponsorship thing ended a couple of years ago.

I also still have some 20-50 that I use in my other cars.



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[Bill Miller]

Mark,

I'll just throw this out. Is there any chance that you got an oil pump for a hydraulic lifter motor?


Dick,

While we're on the subject of oil pressure/levels, what are your thoughts on running an Accusump?

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608