Arrgh... it starts to get annoying... Plenty of wiggle room in these discussions now, which starts to pi$$ me off. First of all, the response from HANS/Hubbard-Downing is not from Hubbard or Downing, but a sales guy. Screw that, lemme talk to the engineer! Plenty here are engineers, and I happen to believe (based on previous discussions) that those who are not are perfectly capable of reviewing numbers and summary data to verify conclusions. Don't try to simplify things for me - you're insulting my intelligence!

Amusing to note that Gregg's response to my request for video was the observation at how meaningless position is vs. force data (true) - in contrast, the pretty little sheet from Hubbard-Downing (linked in the other thread, here it is:
http://www.logician.com/Stuff/ComparisonSheet06.pdf) is pictures from the crash tests, not even video, with some numbers to the side.

Hell, let's tear the HANS sales rep's response apart point by point, for consistency.

0) The HANS is currently FIA certified. I should damn well hope so, given that it's being used in F1! Of course, as I think we all well know, impact considerations in a single-seat formula car are a little different than a sedan. But that's besides the point. Is the HANS the _only_ FIA certified device? He claims ignorance here, which is correct and valid depending on when he makes this statement. But we must also examine exactly what the FIA is certifying here - as examined on rennlist, their seat certification is less than impressive (though better than nothing) and sometimes "FIA-certified" is taken (in discussion as a blessing from the hand of God, far more than I think even the FIA consciously wishes it to be. BTW, anyone else note that the FIA H+N testing procedure seems to be nothing more than a quality test for the HANS device? I don't even know how you could test and ISAAC, Hutchens, et al on that rig. Read the test procedure. We LOVE the FIA! </sarcasm>

2) Sounds like behavioural modification to get over limitations of the system. I regret that I am unable to work with Porsche to have them redesign the window opening of my '79 924 to ease my egress with a HANS device. I don't think it'd be IT-legal. Of course, I've chosen a device which requires that I release it myself when I exit. It was the first thing I popped, reflexively, after the last time I crashed; then I thought to myself and made a conscious decision to NOT unbuckle, since I was still in an impact zone. Only the Hutchens and D-Cel may have an advantage in this area, but I'm willing to make a tradeoff on ease of egress before I compromise on performance. No big deal here, IMO.

2) The link earlier in the thread to RSI Safety would seem to contrast sharply with this statement: http://www.rsisafety.com/ Perhaps, while the Philly collar works well with the HANS, it's not so readily available at the lower levels? I know Hubbard-Downing has not come out to Waterford, or to meet with our local F+C and safety crews, to address this. Heck, we rent our ambulance! Again, a HANS-specific issue here, and not well addressed for the everyday club racer, IMO.

3, 4) This sounds more like an appeal to "common-sense" rather than test results. As an engineer, I can appreciate how sometimes common-sense is wrong. They're appealing to the emotions of simplicity and fear. They make a vague statement which appears to implicate the ISAAC, but during a mode which sounds like complete failure, and without a direct statement of which device speared the dummy's helmet. I've always wondered why it seems like the helmets nearly come off the dummy anyway, in these impacts - as an issue separate of H+N restraint. I do agree with his statement that an internal net is even more critical, in a lateral impact, than a H+N restraint, having seen the video Mr. Gideon presented.

He further disparages the ISAAC bar graph comparison, while providing even LESS data, but more pretty pictures, to sell ihs product (noting no comparison data shown by him for the ISAAC).

And one last appeal to the emotions - hey, all the big boys are wearing the HANS - don't you want one? Yeah, well, except that a whole helluva lot of NASCAR guys are wearing Hutchens, and frankly, I REALLY don't think that's better than a HANS! I doubt Gregg would disagree with me on that one! When there's SO much data out there showing that the HANS is better than the Hutchens and D-Cel, why does anybody wear the latter?

I'm still not satisfied with the limited amount of data out there, even if I have put my money where my mouth is.

I hate salesmen, but I guess that's just the engineer in me.

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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com