Responsibility

[JWiley]

This post is prompted by an incident at the ARRC, but has been of growing concern to me for a good while now. I drive an ex-ITD MG Midget in ITC, simply because that's the only place for us now without investing a lot more money in the car. We are of course slower than about 90% of the field, and make a conserted effort to stay out of other competitor's "racing room" by waving them by. The incident at the ARRC occurred in Turn 5 on the 3rd lap of the first qualifying session (ie, cool weather, cold tires, cold brains). I was aware that an "here-to-be-un-named" driver in an ITB was approaching thru the esses, but not that closely. I set up for 5 on the outside curbing, turned across to the inside apex, and was broadsided by this guy trying to get inside me; not brutal contact, but full-length scrape and dent. I protested the incident, was promptly heard by the SOM Court, and was astounded to be be found "equally at fault".

Here's what troubles me-- the growing number of drivers who seen to leave their brains (along with any sense of responsibility) in the paddock when they set wheels to track, and forget that this is supposed to be amateur racing. I can't count the number of times I have seen dangerous, banzai moves that risk life and equipment, and that's just in meaningless practice sessions! This is what many drivers don't seem to grasp: the fact that you are behind a slower car does not grant you the right to pass at will; the car that has the line has the line, and if you have to wait to make a sane pass, then you wait. My incident at Turn 5
involved another driver who I doubt has had much experience at difficult-to-learn Road Atlanta, which would indicate additional caution while learning the track. Fat chance.

At the Labor Day races at RA a month earlier, my partner was banzaied in the esses in the closing laps by a Spec Miata
making a totally meaningless pass in a place where you don't even try meaningful passes. Since there was no room to pass, the Miata ended up in the grass on the outside, where he kicked up an old driveshaft hidden in the grass; it bounced out onto the track, up across our fender and hood, and smashed the driver's side windshield. Does anybody out there lack the imagination to visualize the results if this shaft had happened to have been "spear" oriented? My friend would be dead.

The point of this diatribe is to ask those of you that we share the track with to be aware that there are consequences to what you do out there. You do not have the right to indulge your Speed Racer fantasies at the expense of your fellow competitors' equipment, or, ultimately, lives. We all have the right to use the racetrack, drive the line, and have fun; the only way this can happen is if you can trust the sanity of your fellow drivers, and,
sadly, this seems to be a dwindling expectation.

Am I alone in this opinion?


James Wiley
ITC #72 , Atlanta Region

[pgipson]

No, you are not.

4 weeks ago I was hit on drivers side going into the tightest turn at Firebird, by a driver that had spun at least twice already. I had moved to the outside of the turn to give him plenty of room as I anticipated that he would try to get by me at that point and I was 1 lap up on him (so it was not for position and we had 1 lap left). He locked up the brakes and skidded into my RX7 hard enough to bend the axle housing, the axle, and the housing mounts. Not to mention the body damage and the bent Circle wheel.

The issue certainly isn't as common for our Spec RX7 class as it once was, but we still have one or two people that think racing for 12th means you are free to destroy cars.

In my case, I filed a protest and it was upheld with a 3 race probabtion of the other driver. This was not the first time I had seen similar out of control driving from this person. And I talked to some other drivers to validate what I was going to do. But it was the first time I had ever protested another driver. I didn't enjoy it. And I didn't do it for vindictive reasons. I wanted the driver to understand that it is not ok to drive over your head and put other people or cars at risk. You want to drive your car into the guardrail at 65 mph go ahead. Don't try to use me as a cushion.

It was complicated since the corner didn't call the contact so the Chief Steward was essentially powerless to do anything.
So I did.

[RSTPerformance]

In my opinion I think that a slower car who is being lapped (whether broken or not) needs to respect the faster cars. I also think that the faster cars need to respect the slower cars. I actually think in a perfect world that whoever is actually "in a race" against another car should be the "owner" of the track. By this I mean those that are not in a race (by themselves) should stay out of the way (weather they are faster or slower).

My car has been broken many many times where it hasn't allowed me to rev over 4,500rpm. This causes slow straightway speed but does not effect the corner speed (generally you would downshift and be around 3,000 RPM). What happens then is faster cars approach and close in fast but then in the turns I see wide faces as I stay beside them all the way through the turn. I always leave plenty of room to pass on the inside and/or outside, I always pointed and did my best to stay out of the way. Last year people lost races because they did not watch the point by and did not pay attention to how slow I was going, on the other hand on weekends where my car is fast I have had issues with slower cars (no names but it was a silver BMW at the NARRC Runoffs at lime Rock, he is also on the front cover of the last Pit Talk). This particular driver was clue-less to what the faster cars were doing, and hogged the track risking my 3rd place position. He almost cost me the race, and he was not happy with me after the race, but if had had said anything to me I would have given him a few words about risking my life/race/car.

I have been on both sides of the fence and I am sorry to say, but I think it is the slower cars responsibility (gentleman’s agreement) to leave room for a faster car (especially one in a dual with another car) to pass you anywhere on the track (even in the middle of a turn). The only time I think this rule should be changed is in practice/qualifying, and if the slower car is actually in a wheel to wheel dual with someone else that is also slow.

At the ARRC I witnessed (and caught on video) a yellow ITC MG(?) that cut off a faster ITB VW heading onto the main straight. They made contact at the apex (side on side). The VW made it through unaffected, but the MG(?) didn't. It spun all the way to the start finish line and made an amazing save without hitting any walls, however that incident should have been avoided as the MG(?) should have left room on the inside for the lapping cars.

Just my .02cents

Raymond "guess it depends on the situation" Blethen

PS: to me a race for last is just as important, if not more important than a race for 1st. (Its still ok to finish 2nd but it really stinks to finish last )

PSS: I have mentioned this before but it is related- I hate watching the "big bore" races where you have very fast cars but moron drivers who get in the way of lap traffic cause they think they have the whole track and are obliviose to what is going on around them...

Oh this does have an all too familiar ring to me, similar deal, im ITA, ITB GETTING LAPPED decides to "hang onto" whatever meaningless position it had, loses it right in front of me in mid corner, I missed it but the guy behind me tatered her, they took her off on a stretcher. 2 months later, SAME CAR starts behind me, traffic is still backed up on 2nd lap and she dosnt even brake for the corner, and slides sideways across my bow and continues off into the weeds narrowly missing my front end, im done, im not racing with her any more. I seen way too many incidences like this, this season and it was one of the determining factors in pushing to finish my EP car.

[gran racing]

The main point here is that people need to use common sense. Unfortunately I am on the slower end of the SCCA ITA spectrum. I do try to "get out of the way" for the faster cars. If there are two faster cars racing, I'll try not to give an advantage to either of the two cars (usually - there are always exceptions). But, at the same time it does neither car much good to be side to side on some turns and cause both cars to slow down considerably and both lose a great deal of time.

During the first few races of this season (my rookie year) I spent too much time concentrating on letting the faster guys by. Of course I still make it a point to let the faster cars / leaders by, but still run my own race. The faster car needs to make the pass safely.

I've also been fortunate to be on the other side of the spectrum with a local racing club in new england (EMRA). With this club, my car is classified where I can compete - I actually happen be one of the faster cars out there. So I have been able to experience it from both sides.

I will say that people that are running in the front have to realize that people running behind them (even several cars back) are still are racing and care about their position. My poor friend Jake - I could be running 20th place out of 30 cars and he could be in 19th place...I still car really care about beating him and some of the other people I have developed rivalries with.

Basically it comes down to giving each other respect out on the track. If you are a faster car and respect me and my car out there, I'll do the same. If you do some really silly / unnecessary things, I have no problem accidently getting in the way a bit next time you come around or the next race. Hopefully everyone can give each other racing room as we all are only racing for fun. When we start racing for more than some piece of plastic, then we'll talk again.

NER ITA #13
Yellow Prelude si

[This message has been edited by gran racing (edited November 18, 2003).]

[CaptainWho]

As a corner worker, I don't really care who's faster. If you're faster and you do something stupid I'm calling you in. If you're slower and you do something stupid, I'm calling you in. If you're working a corner when I do something stupid on track, I expect you to call me in whether I'm faster or slower, running for first or not-last. We're racing for a frickin' $20 plastic trophy and risking lives doing it. Safety first.

[joeg]

Mr. Wiley--You are not alone. People just need to THINK and remember this is not pro-racing.

However,one of the problems is not knowing your fellow members of your race group-and them not knowing you. This knowledge takes a bit of time to acquire and it would be tough to have it for a well subscribed event like the ARRC.

[whenry]

It is interesting that many of the cited events involve cars that are racing in different classes. I would consider it to be failure on my part to get involved in an incident where I was racing "balls out" with a car in a different class. Both need to respect the other and give room but when you consider that nothing is gained by challenging the other class car for the track position, why get involved? Too many folk have been watching Jimmy Spencer IMHO. It is too easy to lift just a little at the braking zone and allow the faster car thru and not upset your line or race to get into an on-track arguement about "ownership" of a piece of pavement.

[OTLimit]

I don't care for morons who put my husband's life at risk.

That said, having discussed this many times at the track, just because a car is slower doesn't mean s/he should just move over. Chris would much rather they just drive their line and be predictable. The faster car will get around, as long as their ego doesn't do anything stupid.

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
At the ARRC I witnessed (and caught on video) a yellow ITC MG(?) that cut off a faster ITB VW heading onto the main straight.

The video from our camera of this incident looks more complicated than this statement implies. The car was a Fiat. Several ITB cars were lapping this car, and apparently thought the race could be won on a single corner. In an instance where you have 4-6 cars involved, it's not so easy to lay blame.



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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[apr67]

Having been one of the slowest SM's at the ARRC, I had some unique moments during the race.

I had a very il handling car, it was 'scary' loose. It would try to spin in 3, 5, 6, 7, and 11. Since I was at the back of the pack, I played pretty hard (and spun more than twice) during the race. But when the field caught me for lapping, I would give them huge points by, and I went a bit slower into the turns where I had the tendancy to spin. I did not want to cause anyone who was really racing (regardless of position) to be too messed up by passing me. I also didn't want my new SM to look like all the others (many seem like they just left the demo derby!).

But I saw some bone head moves. One guy, who was as slow as me, was trying to break the draft down the straight. Sheesh.

Alan

[pgipson]

The GCRs (and common sense) place the burden for a safe pass on the passing (i.e. faster) car. That does not relieve any one of the requirement to provide racing room, which you have to do no matter what. It's not accepatble to run someone into a wall or cut someone off in a corner. You want to do that, go run the WC.

What I try to do when being passed by a fater car is drive the line and give the other car a predictable target to miss. I don't think the right way is to move off line. Most of the people in my class that are noticeably faster than me understand that the best place to pass is before or after a turn and will (unless in a battle) time their approach to come off the turn with more speed. You have to maintain momentum to pass sucessfully

[cherokee]

When I took my check ride for my pilots lic. I was told this is a lic. to learn. Coming out of my rookie year it think you never stop learning. I am about the slowest ITA car in the country but if someone is coming up behind me I do what I was told. "hold my line and when you have a chance point them by. This seems to work pretty well for me and the guys passing, some have waved as they blew by know what I am going to do. If I am racing someone then thats different, and they seem to know that. I do have a radio in my car and my wife will let me know that 1st and 2nd are comming up. If I am racing for 12th and 13th then I will back off and let the leaders by. I have yet to come off the track without a smile on my face.

[racer_tim]

James, just check what happened on the 1st lap @ the Portland Rose Cup National.

http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/2003/Portl...-Cup/index.html

This driver's appeal of the DQ made it to FasTrack. I have a feeling that he "still doesn't get it"



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[RX767]

Originally posted by Lesly Albin:" I don't care for morons who put my husband's life at risk.
That said, having discussed this many times at the track, just because a car is slower doesn't mean s/he should just move over. Chris would much rather they just drive their line and be predictable. The faster car will get around, as long as their ego doesn't do anything stupid."

I think the above quote succinctly sums up part of this discussion. Although I am currently one of the slower cars, and I only have seven race weekends logged so far, I would like to add or reiterate these points.

- I have no problem pointing a faster driver by even if you are in my class driving the same make and model. If you did not see a point, assume I did not see you.

- I do check my mirrors at appropriate places on the track. I do pay attention to flags. However, there are places on the track such as "esses" or begining of a turn where my focus is also on braking, downshifting, and/or taking the appropriate line. In these cases, it is my intent to remain predictable and remain on the racing line. A faster car may have to wait to get by.

- I do not understand why some classes are grouped with obviously slower classes. My last race of the year was at Nelson Ledges. We had approximately twenty ITS and ITA cars. Also, tossed into our group were six or seven T2 and ITE cars. Although it was a novelty to have my doors blown off by Freddy Baker's T2 Porshe Boxter among other Corvettes, Mustangs and Porshes, it seems that race organizers are tempting fate. It further bothered me to walk up to the bridge and see only seven or eight GT1, T1, SPO, and AS cars taking the track. I think it would have been a better race weekend for the T2 and ITE cars to be out with this group rather then weaving through twenty ITA and ITS cars. I would also like to thank the corner worker who had the wisdom to frantically show me the blue and yellow flag before turn one on the last lap during the Saturday race. With the white flag displayed, Freddy Baker and a ITE Corvette were wheel to wheel through turn one. Things were resolved by the time they got to me, but I was looking for them and I was able to give them the racing line.

Bill Emery
Glen Region
ITA#23

[Bill Miller]

Raymond,

The only thing I can say about your attitude on this is that it's dead wrong. Read some of the other posts. Part of being a fast driver is knowing how and where to pass people. And, it's just a fact of racing, sometimes traffic plays a part in the outcome. Doesn't matter if it's an SCCA Regional or an F1 race.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[mowog]

I disagree with the current Steward's thinking regarding fault. I've been racing for over 20 years, instructing for over 15, and I STILL think it's the responsibility of the faster driver to get by safely. Having said that, the slower driver should be predictable (as Lesley, Chris, and others said). In other words, the slower driver should either drive the line (yes, this usually means going from one side of the road to the other), or clearly waive the faster driver by. At a recent Driver's School I was driving a student around the track during the lunch time drive-around session. I was attempting to pass a student driven street car coming up to a left hand turn. The student suddenly moved in front of me about 5 car lengths before the turn in point - I was on the left side of the track, the line was on the right. I had to brake REAL hard. I stayed to the left, assuming he would apex then drift right, which is the proper line. He drifted to the middle of the track, then moved left again rather suddenly. I had to go off track to avoid the impact. And this was in a street car during drive-arounds, not at speed! At least my student learned the reason we teach students to stay on the line and let the faster car get around you, so I guess as a teaching method the close call was worth while (I just hope the instructor had some proper things to say to the student in the other car!)

[This message has been edited by mowog (edited November 19, 2003).]

[mowog]

edited original post, deleted this one


[This message has been edited by mowog (edited November 19, 2003).]

[racer_tim]

Guys/Gals, when I race @ Laguna Seca with all of the wired sound windows, the small bore production folks run with all of the GT cars, AS, Super Production, GTA, and all of the Production classes. Speed differentials are EXTREMELY great. Since I drive one of the slower cars in that group, it's IMPERATIVE that I stay on line, so the faster cars can know what to expect. We have a couple of REAL fast GT1 cars, and SP cars. Lew Larimer was 2nd this year at the Run-Offs, and Bob Stefanowicz drives a VERY fast twin Turbo 911. Frank Emmett also has a very fast SP Corvette.

With that said, I do always drive with 1 eye on the mirror, and since I've been a flagger since 1978, I know who's fast and who's not. I also know most of the flaggers. Some are better than others, and some you trust and some you don't.

I make a special point of talking to the faster drivers / cars on grid, especially during practice / qualifying and tell them that I'll most likely see them coming, and expect a point by, but I WILL STAY ON LINE. This goes a long way for both the slower and faster guys to play together safely.

During races, it's not as crucial, since once you've started to get passed by the leaders, expect more folks to catch you.

Just my $0.02 worth

Up until this year, I never hit anybody, and nobody ever hit me. I lost both streaks @ the same event in Portland. Needless to say, that was a National event. Never had any problems during Regionals.




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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[volante]

I was at the start finish line when the yellow Fiat was swarmed on by the VW's going under start-finish.I have to agree with miss Albin on this subject,that Fiat sure looked like he did not make any sudden move's,blame? I am leaning towards the passing cars.I have raced both yellow Fiat's in Mid-Div for a few years now,we almost always lap them 1 or 2 times in a race(ITA CRX)I have never had a problem getting by them.They almost always point me by,even when they are in a heated battle with another ITC car,there is a time to pass and a time not to,I always wave back as I go by to say thanks for the point.Good thing he kept that car off the wall at the ARRC,because those VW's would have ruined his weekend.It's interesting-- other racers take on thing's that happen on track,--------backmarkers.

[JWiley]

First of all, I'm gratified by the responses to my initial post--I was beginning to think I was alone!

I was extremely disappointed by the Stewards' failure to take any real action in this case, and even more disturbed by their failure again in the subsequent driver's meeting to make a loud and clear
statement about driver's responsibility. I had asked that this be a priority, and all that was said was to the effect that "We never like to see contact out there"--pretty weak.

Regarding the Fiat(s), I was following the pack that tangled on the front straight, and Volante's post was right on-- the poor guy was "swarmed" by the pack of faster cars ( again with the "pass at any cost" mentality), and told me he was hit from behind. I saw his car afterwards, and the right side was badly chewed.

I'm also in firm agreement that the notion that the car making the pass has greater responsibility--there is only so much you can do if you are in front, and I have learned that driving in your mirrors in turns only leads to more trouble. If you can't count on a basic level of consideration from other drivers, the fun pretty much goes out of it.

I've instructed at SCCA drivers' schools a
few times, and realized pretty quickly that nobody really "learns to drive" a racecar at these events--the time is too short, and only experience and seat time will teach you what you really need to know. What I accordingly chose to try and hammer into my students was a sense of responsibility for their actions on the track, and an understanding of the serious consequences of thoughtless behavior. I would like to see a much greater emphasis at schools on this aspect of amateur racing, but I don't think it's likely.

James Wiley
ITC#72 / Atlanta Region