NER Club Racing Meeting minutes

[bg43wex]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
Amen, SteveU. NO offense to the folks working locally, but it's time to bring in the Big Guns CEO for a heart-to-heart talk.

How can I get involved in these processes and negotiations (and please don't tell me to show up at the meetings in MA on a Friday night. Won't happen.) - GA

Big Guns?

I don't mean to be smug but HAHAHAHAHAHA!

sorry,

What exactly would Steve Johnson do to make LRP lower the 2005 rates? threaten to leave? our dates would be gobbled up in just a phone call to one of those more inexpensive clubs, remember we use the most track ammenities so we pay the premium. To my knowledge the only two groups that don't pay to race there are ALMS and Nascar, the rest pay a site fee.

Yes SCCA has a long history at that track as a matter of fact they will be forever linked together. But as we were told in order to preserve the legacy of Skip Barber these increses have to be made, the track explained that they have been loosing many hundreds of thousands of dollars every year and this is how they will repair it.

there are many reasons why LRP can't turn a profit, mismanagement of facilities, over spending, on going litigation... we have offered to assist in cost containment but have not recieved a call yet.

Don't get to jacked, just remember it's just business to them and a hobby to us this is a crappy answer but it is the truth.

this news affects 4 regions so we are all in the same boat, check with your local regional exec's to see if you can help.

Ray not attending event at LRP only hurts our club. not attending the Pro events hurts the track, just a thought.

Greg, if you "cut Bait" what happens to NY region and Mohud? they have no other tracks to run at and NNJR will be down to one at Pocono, don't forget divisional race dates are in demand, other regions will take our dates to their tracks, if and when this issue is solved scheduling sanctioned event that don't interfere with other regions will be almost impossible.

To the best of my knowledge we can not sublet our dates, besides at the new fee for W2W racing who else will pay it?

The track considers racing when you pass anywhere. if you want to run in November or April the cost is 6k a weekend cheaper.


brian m

[gran racing]

This is very disturbing to say the least. $300? Ouch! It will be interesting to see what impact this has both short and long term. How many people will be influenced not to become involved in SCCA racing because of the increased costs? Or as Ray said, go to other tracks.

Are these rate increases a done deal?

What would it hurt to have Steve Johnson speak with them? I realize that you / other SCCA officials may say the same exact thing as what Steve would, but LRP may view it differently. It is just human nature whether warranted or not.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[Andy Bettencourt]

BM,

It never hurts to introduce 'C' level players into a negotiation - and we are in some fierce ones. What it does is lend some *additional* credibility and urgency to the mix. A guy like SJ may hit it off with this guy in a professional or personal way that none of the local players could (or should for that matter).

It's a very valid strategy - one that would be interesting to try. I guess you have to ask what the downside is - and if properly debriefed by you and your team, I see it being positive - maybe not immediately or tangibly at first but you never know.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Greg Amy]

Brian, there are some conflicts in your response, including:

>>>...our dates would be gobbled up in just a phone call to one of those more inexpensive clubs

>>>...besides at the new fee for W2W racing who else will pay it?

>>...if and when this issue is solved scheduling (conflicts will result)

OK, so answer these basic questions:

- One, has anyone done any marketing or economic studies or polls to find out if running events at LRP with these increased entry fees will be profitable? Will they break even? Will they show a loss? If you've done so, and if you show a loss, do you have a rough idea of how much of a loss?

- Two, if you show a loss, can the region(s) afford to absorb that loss until this "situation is solved"? Can or will this be resolved? If no, are we willing to suck it up and pay the price in finitum to "preserve the legacy of Skip Barber?"

- Three, if so, does it have the support of the membership?

- Four, are you working towards contacting any other potential track suitors to see what the possibilities are?

These questions, of course, are rhetorical, because I know (collective) you have not had the opportunity to do that kind of study. But you must. Because if you don't, and if the competitor demand for entries at LRP drops *which is most assuredly will* then you will be faced with a serious potential for financial troubles. I believe the priorities for the regions should be as follows:

1. Preserve the financial health of the region,
2. Preserve the available track dates at LRP,
3. Preserve the divisional race dates on the SCCA calendar.

If you do not preserve #1, then you can't do #2; #2 must be in place for #3 to happen.

Frankly, while competitors love to race at LRP (and I love that it's just over an hour from my home) there is a limit to what folks are willing to pay to play. I'm not threatening to not pay, and in fact I probably will; however in the end the priority for competitors is the availability of races. I can race at NHIS, Pocono, the Glen, even Summit Point and somewhere in there is a financial and mental cost/benefit ratio that I'm willing to pay. That is, no doubt, the case for everyone regardless of their thought processes.

One option to minimize the effects and to preserve the priorities is to sublet the track dates on short-term basis. If you can absorb the losses and you can sublet the track dates, then it might be in the region's best interest to take the losses in order to retain the dates on the track and SCCA calendar.

Example: your marketing studies show that competitor entries will drop to the point where the region(s) could show a $7,500 loss per day (I'm just making up a number). You find that another organization is willing to buy the track date for $5000 per day less than you're paying for it. Therefore, it is in the region's best financial interest to sublet that date for a $5000 loss in order to retain the date for the future. It makes no economic sense to suck up the $15K loss by holding the race versus a $10K loss by subletting.

The problem is, though, YOU DON'T KNOW what the effect on entries will be, because you haven't had an opportunity to research it. Without further info on what's going on and what may happen you're simply HOPING that everyone will belly up to the bar and pay the price. A head-in-the-sand attitude just doesn't cut it, nor does playing the "loyalty" trump card by trying to guilt folks into paying the extra to show up and 'support the cause'. The region exists for the benefit of the membership, not the other way around, and individuals will work towards their own best interests, *just as the region should to retain its own financial stability*. Basic economics, Brian. As you said, this is a hobby, not an investment into the future.

You could very well be right, Brian: it's quite possible that Steve Johnson can do nothing in regards to the track rates. It's quite likely that the members of the local regions have negotiated as well as anyone could, and have done everything possible. However, fully understanding that the local regions are the ones that will have to deal with the outcome of these negotiations, I think it's in everyone's best interests to pull out all the stops and take every opportunity.

Greg

[lateapex911]

As I understand it, LRP has some issues that are problems of their own making, and some issues that are responsible for the increase that we are looking at.

I think the tactic is to attack those issues. As a Region, perhaps we can provide some of the manpower that is needed that the track is currently providing. So to help, keep your ears open and be willing to volunteer if that is indeed the need.

I also advise that this is not a "panic" situation. Brian is working on it, and I know others are as well.... smart people who know stuff about how the business aspects get done.

Bringing SJ in might be a good idea, but I think we need to do more negotiations first. I know there are issues that are in the works that haven't been resolved. lets get closer before we get too wigged out.

I sincerely doubt that we will actually see the increase remain as it has been proposed.

If that is the case, entry fees will likely go up, but not as sharply. Will it be THAT big a deal to pay 50 or 60 extra? Really...if you race at LRP 3 times a year, thats only $150 for the seasons budget. C'mon Ray, you know it'll take extra Corona for you to travel...put that in the mojo math! And $50 bucks is not even ONE tank of gas for us...if you are an hour from Lime Rock, you are at LEAST 2 hours away from any other track...thats 4 round trip, which is easily more than $50...so economically it's not logical to drive to Summit from Hartford to save $50.

I agree though, that an 80% increase IS insulting! And if the rates hold, they better provide a world class facility for the world class prices!

My top 3 list for improvements:
The showers
the showers
the showers....

oh....and the bathrooms (why do I have to pay a guy a buck each time to make a scummy place slightly- ever so slightly- less scummy?)

and the paddock drainage...errrr the LACK of paddock drainage. I swear we have enough guys in this club that could make the paddock drain in a weekend fo a few thousand...

oh yea..the PA sucks.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Diane]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
oh yea..the PA sucks.

There's a PA?!?!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

What kept me from LRP last year (2003) is the fact that there are doubles at NHIS and none at LRP. I'd rather run LRP as it's so much closer. I'd like to see more Fri/Sat events there.

At least I had hot water in the showers but I could do with a little less mold. It was a nice balancing act trying to shower and dress without touching any surfaces (much less trying to figure out where to put my clean clothes)!


Diane

[bg43wex]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
OK, so answer these basic questions:

- One, has anyone done any marketing or economic studies or polls to find out if running events at LRP with these increased entry fees will be profitable? Will they break even? Will they show a loss? If you've done so, and if you show a loss, do you have a rough idea of how much of a loss?

Car counts determine profitability, there really is no way to predict how many people will show for any particulr event, what makes you show at one event verses another?
every region hopes for 200 at LRP most break even points start around there, less we lose more we profit.

- Two, if you show a loss, can the region(s) afford to absorb that loss until this "situation is solved"? Can or will this be resolved? If no, are we willing to suck it up and pay the price in finitum to "preserve the legacy of Skip Barber?"

Most regions do not have cash reserves, so absorbing a loss will not happen for very long, to answer your questions second part, will you wait out the price of gas or just stop using it? this is quite possibly the price for the near future, I don't like it either.

- Three, if so, does it have the support of the membership?

we won't know until we try, this will be discussed at NER's annual meeting in January.

- Four, are you working towards contacting any other potential track suitors to see what the possibilities are?

do you mean for the purpose of buying the track? or do you mean to sublet?

if it's sublet keep in mind we don't own the dates at the track.

1. Preserve the financial health of the region,
2. Preserve the available track dates at LRP,
3. Preserve the divisional race dates on the SCCA calendar.

you nailed it!


One option to minimize the effects and to preserve the priorities is to sublet the track dates on short-term basis. If you can absorb the losses and you can sublet the track dates, then it might be in the region's best interest to take the losses in order to retain the dates on the track and SCCA calendar.

we will not be pursuing anything like this.


A head-in-the-sand attitude just doesn't cut it, nor does playing the "loyalty" trump card by trying to guilt folks into paying the extra to show up and 'support the cause'.

this is actually what the track believes will happen.

brian m

[This message has been edited by bg43wex (edited November 16, 2004).]

[moto62]

Originally posted by bg43wex:
Ray not attending event at LRP only hurts our club.

Would you rather me hurt my wallet instead? This is just for fun, remember?

Originally posted by bg43wex:
not attending the Pro events hurts the track, just a thought.

What pro events? You mean like Busch, or import challenge? They still have those?

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Originally posted by lateapex911C'mon Ray, you know it'll take extra Corona for you to travel...put that in the mojo math! And $50 bucks is not even ONE tank of gas for us...if you are an hour from Lime Rock, you are at LEAST 2 hours away from any other track...thats 4 round trip, which is easily more than $50...so economically it's not logical to drive to Summit from Hartford to save $50.</font>

Check the mojo math again. I won't save anything but I could go a ways away,and besides, once you get out of Connecticut, a 12 pk of Corona can be had for $11.99, a gallon of premium fuel is under $2.00, and Marlboro's are $2.50 a pack(except in New York City). Now that's some savings
Ray
PS- I do very much enjoy running at LRP but only at a fair price. I can just as well do without it.

[RSTPerformance]

I'm already planning on skipping all LRP races in the future because the entry fee is ALREADY to much let alone if it goes up. Where can you race and get less time on the track with more cars that go way over the insurance agreement we have with SCCA. Do the members of your region a favor and do not show up to LRP. Let them know we will not attend events with these huge rates. Once LRP gets away with it so will others. For the long run do us all a favor and DO NOT GO TO LRP if the entry goes up. It's up to all of us to take a stand. Do it for OUR club.

Stephen

[ulfelder]

Two things:

ONE:
Brian writes: "What exactly would Steve Johnson do to make LRP lower the 2005 rates?"

I'm not sure exactly what he would or could do, if anything -- but he might surprise us all with an effective solution that nobody (including LRP) has yet envisioned.

Let's turn it around: Could it *hurt* for SJ to be made aware of the situation? How about presenting him the facts and letting him decide when and whether he should get involved?

TWO:
Personally, I'm not especially price-sensitive on entry fees; as somebody pointed out, these fees are a low percentage of the cost of this silly hobby.

*But* ...

At some point, the fee becomes a slap in the face, and you feel like you're a jackass if you pay it. It's like gas stations near the Interstate that charge an extra 15 cents per gallon; you're willing to hunt around for more reasonable prices just to avoid being a sucker. By the time you've found reasonably priced gas, you may not save a penny -- but you don't feel like a sucker, and that's worth something.

A couple of the races I traditionally attend at LRP are 1-day events held in conjunction with driving schools. That means a 12- to 15-minute qualifying session (you heat your tires, then get 2 shots at a flying lap if you're lucky), then a 15-lap race.

That's not a lot of value even for $200. If the price tag goes over $250, we're in slap-in-the-face country, and I learn to love the haul to Pocono and the Glen ...

Steve U
05 ITS
Flatout Motorsports

[JLawton]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Do the members of your region a favor and do not show up to LRP. Let them know we will not attend events with these huge rates. Once LRP gets away with it so will others. For the long run do us all a favor and DO NOT GO TO LRP if the entry goes up. It's up to all of us to take a stand. Do it for OUR club.

Stephen

The problem is clubs like the Porsche Club fill up MONTHS before the event with a long waiting list. There's always someone willing to pay more.

For me, to go to NHIS (or WG, or Pocono), it's two extra tanks of gas ($100), at least one night in a motel ($50-$100. No, I won't camp, I would rather pay $50 and get a good nights sleep and not shower in mold and pee in a REAL toilet ), more time away from my family. priceless ).

Yup, the higher cost sucks!! But at least road racing isn't going the way of Rally...... yet!!

------------------
Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi

[gran racing]

When a region rents the track, do they get it for Friday and Saturday always? Or is it just Saturday? If regions have it on Friday as well, subletting it to a HPDE club seems like a good idea at least on the surface.

I have to believe there is some solution out there.

Steve and Greg – you say that an $80 increase represents a very small portion of a race weekend expenses. But you might be surprised at the percentage difference this represents between racers. Based on my past seasons, this represents fairly significant increase in my (and many other people’s) weekend expenses. I realize this is not crucial to this discussion but this generalization bothered me a bit.

Brian, is this going to be discussed again at the next NER meeting?

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[dickita15]

the fridays are not automatic. they are rented as a seperate day. if the two day weekend at the new prices does not work than we could cut fridays though I think we do have an obligation to run some drivers schools and i for one do like the two day regionals better than the one day. another option is to use the fridays for non race event for which the rent would be cheaper such as solo 1 or car control. this would allow us to keep the date but still cut cost to the racing program.

i do not believe that this will be the end of scca racing at lrp but profitability is all about car counts. car counts go in cycles. if we abandon dates during a down cycle it is very hard to get them back if things pick up.

I do not belive we can survey, model or predict what effect this will have on car counts. will ray not race at lrp, i doubt it.
will stephen boycot. who knows.

remember our relationship with the new manager is very new and his time on the job to date is short.

in the short term we will work on the offer to reduce the cost difference between racing and non racing days. if the track is as receptive as I hope we will be able to work together to make this much more affordable.
the savings could be significant.

we will not really know the results for next deason for a few months. the relationship between the 4 region and lrp is not simple.

dick

[Scott Koschwitz]

Thanks for the updates and input, Dick.

This question may be premature, but have NER and the other regions sketched a schedule for next season for dates at Lime Rock and other tracks? I'm in the process of planning my schedule and budget for next season.

I agree with you in that I like a two-day regional at Lime Rock better than the one-day regional, which is an awfully hurried schedule.

To make Fridays less expensive for NER, is it possible to schedule high-performance driving sessions for non-racers in the morning and a test session for those racing on Saturday in the afternoon?

I first drove Lime Rock at one of the high-performance driving sessions in 2001 and again in 2002. There seemed to be a lot if interest in these, but I don't know how NER fared financially with these.

[alfa]

In all of this, there is a theme that there are increased costs to LRP to run a race over an HPDE.

I can understand higher insurance costs, but are there other additional costs? Does a race require additional staff from LRP?

Just curious what's driving this cost increase.

[dickita15]

there is a tentative schedule that looks much like last year. I think nhis is locked down but there may be some shuffling at lrp. by december we should be pretty sure with the exception of any changes force by pro schedule changes.
half of the increase is applies to all dates and half is due to increased costs to LRP for wheel to wheel events. the second part is what we are working on first. some costs are insurance, some are extra staff.
of these some are gcr requirments, some are state requirments and some may not be neccesary. we have some work to do to sort them out. much of these have been built up over the years and the people who added them from both the track and clubs may be long gone
dick

[MMiskoe]

Has the track actually itemized the difference between SCCA and a non Wheel-wheel event? Considering that clubs like COM rent the track w/ corner workers while SCCA shows up with their own, I have a tough time finding where the cost difference is that much w/ the exception of insurance. I know some clubs scrimp on stuff like only having one wrecker or ambulance if they feel they can get away with the down time involved with only one repsonse crew, but that stuff is directly related to how many cars you have on track, not what the cars are doing on track.

What are these items that merit this cost increase? Any decent business will itemize what you are getting for your money, asking for it is not out of line.

And you guys griping about the showers - LRP bathrooms are the Taje-Mehal compared to Bridgehampton, Moroso, Mosport (before renovations). Lets get some decent asphalt to race on, that's what we're there to do isn't it?

Matt

[moto62]

Originally posted by dickita15:
will ray not race at lrp, i doubt it.dick

See! That is what the folks at LRP are thinking. They know we want to race there and for the most part the lesser financially challenged folks will pay the big dues. Sure I'll be at LRP, but it will probably be with EMRA or PDA and that's only if I need to test before I go venturing off someplace else. Dick P. Please work some magic because if the entry fee is more than $200 for a one day deal, I aint going and $225 will be the max for two days. Anyone else willing to share how much you would be willing to pay for entry fees???
Ray

[RSTPerformance]

Originally posted by moto62:

Originally posted by dickita15:
will ray not race at lrp, i doubt it.dick

See! That is what the folks at LRP are thinking. They know we want to race there and for the most part the lesser financially challenged folks will pay the big dues. Sure I'll be at LRP, but it will probably be with EMRA or PDA and that's only if I need to test before I go venturing off someplace else. Dick P. Please work some magic because if the entry fee is more than $200 for a one day deal, I aint going and $225 will be the max for two days. Anyone else willing to share how much you would be willing to pay for entry fees???
Ray

Those are the maximums that I will pay. Any more and I will drive to the glen or pocono for the same costs and more track time.


Stephen

[1stGenBoy]

Hi guys/gals. Out here in area 5 our entry fee is $300.00 minimum and sometimes more at a regional race at Road America. It has been like this for the last couple of years. Granted the $300.00 is for a double regional weekend but, a national race up there was $285.00 plus compliance fees if you were in one of those classes.
A single regional race weekend at Blackhawk Farms can run between $225.00-$275.00 a double regional at that track $305.00 to $325.00

Bob Clark