driver's side glass

[turboICE]

Not sure what the difficulty here is.

GCR 22.1. provides a clear definition of NASCAR style bars in the context of SCCA rules.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">NASCAR-Style Door Bars -If installed, shall consist of one or more sidebars that intrude into the door cavity and connect the main hoop to the front hoop</font>

emphasis added

If a bar is not intruding into the door cavity it is NOT a NASCAR-style bar under the GCR. It is just a regular old side bar.

[ddewhurst]

***If a bar is not intruding into the door cavity it is NOT a NASCAR-style bar under the GCR. It is just a regular old side bar.***

Ok Ed, so it's just an bent up ol bar that looks similar to the GCR NASCAR BAR. There is a rule that spec's that you can put additional bars in the cage tell hell freezes over.

Have Fun
David

[Tom A]

On a somewhat related note, on a car with small vent windows (specifically an ITB GTI), can the glass be replaced with a piece of lexan with a NACA duct?

Something like this:
http://www.specmiata.com/images/karlsduck.jpg

I saw a few Miatas with this at the Thunderhill licensing school in March.

Thanks,

Tom

[Bryan Watts]

Tom...those vents are specifically allowed in the Spec Miata rules. Rule 17.1.9.C.7.i in the SMCS to be exact. There's no such allowance in the ITCS that I know of.

[turboICE]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Ed, you can do GCR type NASCAR bars in the passenger side doors today. You can not gut the door or glass.

Bryan Watts, are you approx 25 years young & the guy who raced WKA Karts in the past.

Have Fun
David

[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited May 04, 2005).]

David, you made a false comment, I pointed out the error - if you can't gut the passenger door, then you can't put in GCR NASCAR style bars in the passenger side. Not sure why the persistence that I have read the rules incorrectly and you have nailed them dead on in your first response to my note.

You can keep throwing -any number of additonal bars desired- at me in an effort to some how avoid acknowledging the validity of the point of my letter to the committee. If you don't agree with me request fine, but continuing to persist that I am in some way misguided because I just don't understand has become pointless. Clearly I have shown an undestanding of the rules and have made a request. Your solution of bars that look like GCR NASCAR bars but aren't doesn't work for me.

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Ed.
240SX ITA

[Matt Rowe]

turboICE, Just as a clarification the rules for passenger safety equipment for PDE vehicles is intended to insure belts, seat construction and arm restraints are similar between the passenger and driver. Door bar requirements were not intended to be an issue. As this is an issue with the Time Trials rules we (the Time Trial Administrative committee) will clarify it. I don't see any reason to change the IT rules for something that isn't an IT issue.

In the meantime if you have a problem with using a particular car at a particular event contact me and I can work some key people to address the issue and do everything possible to make sure we don't keep you from participating.

------------------
~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[ddewhurst]

Ed, please respond after the CRB answers your letter request.

Have Fun
David

[jc836]

The word "style" appears to be the issue more than the rule itself. I think we all agree that for IT cars-we cannot gut or in any other way penetrate the passenger door with bars in any arrangement. Denver/Topeka agrees that what I did is allowed even though the functionality is not the same on the driver's side for a door that is gutted. Just another thought.

I cannot host and do not know how to post pictures-but have a set if anyone is interested in our solution. Just e-mail me.


------------------
Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow

[turboICE]

Originally posted by Matt Rowe:
turboICE, Just as a clarification the rules for passenger safety equipment for PDE vehicles is intended to insure belts, seat construction and arm restraints are similar between the passenger and driver. Door bar requirements were not intended to be an issue. As this is an issue with the Time Trials rules we (the Time Trial Administrative committee) will clarify it. I don't see any reason to change the IT rules for something that isn't an IT issue.

In the meantime if you have a problem with using a particular car at a particular event contact me and I can work some key people to address the issue and do everything possible to make sure we don't keep you from participating.

Thank you for the response. I will readily admit that I was exploring what a PDE tech could infer what was included in term "safety equipment". I didn't view it as that large a stretch that the type of cage protection was included within the definition, though a definition was not given. And since Touring rules require a driver side NASCAR-style bar, I assumed that SCCA was viewing those as having more safety than other non-intrusive style door bars. As with any rules any clarification is appreciated on generic terms such as safety equipment.

Having many friends who are instructors at PDE style events, many of whom had to suffer though instructing me at one time or another, I can fully appreciate and support equal safety protection for them under the rules.

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Ed, please respond after the CRB answers your letter request.

Have Fun

Will do on both items. If I am wrong, I will gladly take the educational input, as any improvement in my understanding of the rules is a positive event. I believe that NASCAR-style bars are an improvement in safety, but they would currently be prohibited under the current prohibition on passenger side door gutting.



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Ed.
240SX ITA

[turboICE]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Ed, please respond after the CRB answers your letter request.

Have Fun
David

David, is this sufficient?

http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/05-0...09-fastrack.pdf


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Ed.
240SX ITA

[This message has been edited by turboICE (edited July 27, 2005).]

[ddewhurst]

Ed, don't ask me how I ended up on this topic again. In past posts I completely missed the rule words "intrude into door cavity" when refering to the NASCAR passenger side protection. I am sorry for my error in conversation with you. If your memo to the BoD pushed this for the passenger side protection thanks. Good job

Have Fun
David



[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited July 27, 2005).]

[turboICE]

There were no problems here. I had read the rules to mean no NASCAR bars on the passenger side (and their intro to the change indicates that was their belief as well) and wrote to ask them to change it and to permit the necessary gutting. I am sure I was not the only one they have ever heard from on the topic.

If I was wrong in my interpretation I definitely wanted to know and wanted to be told - people read plenty of things differently. If I knew for a fact I wouldn't need to post here.

Building a new car this winter has me really interested in changes being made that will help me plan it out. There are a lot of things I want different than my current car that is for sure.

------------------
Ed.
240SX ITA

[ddewhurst]

Ed, I toasted a 1st gen RX-7 two weeks ago. As I strip the car for another build I continue to find amazing damage. & I have more looking to do. In short, both motor mounts are broke, the transmission mount is broke, the complete chassis in front of the fire wall is twisted towards the drivers side along with pushed rearward on the passengers side with the passengers side sub frame stuffed upward maybe 4 inches into the footwell area. As I continue to inspect the overall damage it takes me back to the stories of the NASCAR drivers who had MAJOR accidents & the way to strong chassis in the front of the cars. The drivers bodys took the brunt of the crash rather than the chassis. The chassis strength stood up well beyond the forces of the crash. I understand the super strong chassis is intentional for a rigid platform. Nothing in life is free......

Have Fun
David

ps: Disconnect the drive shaft, the water hoses, a few electrical wires & the motor will fall out. The motor is just sitting on the front cross member & the transmission cross member. The forces of a crash are unbelievable untill one inspects the damage.

[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited July 28, 2005).]

[turboICE]

Just what I needed to hear as I go to an instructor clinic and then double race - while I still have Isaac on my list of to buys!

Best of luck with the salvage.

Fortunately we don't need to worry about the front not absorbing impacts since we can't stiffen or tie the front in - I do like a sound structure around my body though!

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Ed.
240SX ITA

[This message has been edited by turboICE (edited July 28, 2005).]