Weight added to BMW e36

[kthomas]

Originally posted by Geo:
Really? Then why did you need them in the first place?

That's my point. Didn't need them. Still go just as fast, just takes more effort and money to get there. Once you commit to optimizing your shock package it was cheaper in the long run to buy the multi adjustable RR shocks than to buy/revalve/swap/buy/revalve etc like we do now. Like I said, that rule was just a tax on rich people. Didn't change the grid one iota.

wburstein makes a good point re: Wittel and Stepp converting from 240Z's to E36's. In the Southeast Region the hp and brakes on the BMW outclass the Z for those tracks, but I suppose in other regions with shorter, tighter tracks the weight of the BMW might overshadow its other attributes and better handling cars like the Z and RX-7 could be the cars to have.

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katman

[This message has been edited by kthomas (edited November 10, 2004).]

[Diane]

Originally posted by kthomas:
That's my point. Didn't need them. Still go just as fast, just takes more effort and money to get there. Once you commit to optimizing your shock package it was cheaper in the long run to buy the multi adjustable RR shocks than to buy/revalve/swap/buy/revalve etc like we do now. Like I said, that rule was just a tax on rich people.

Correct. Not being rich and running a car with no aftermarket, we didn't have a lot of suspension options.

It was considerably more expensive to get our struts custom made with the sleeves. In addition, because of the sleeves, they are non-adjustable. If we had been able to get threaded-bodied ones that were more or less off the shelf, they would have been adjustable (not RR either). So now we have to pay to have them revalved as we develop the car.

Diane
ITB Escort #21 NER

[mavis]

Originally posted by mlytle:
hi wayne!
lets not ignore the 4th and fifth place cars that were rx7's. the first of which turned in the third fastest race lap, about a half a second slower than the first place bmw.

the track record by a z car was only one tenth of a second slower than the winning bmw's time.

having 7 out of the top ten being bmw's only means there were a ton of bmw's entered. it appears the ultimate potential of the rx7 and z cars is in the same ball park as the bmw's. any gap between these cars seems to be a whole lot smaller than the gaps in the potential of the rest of the cars in the class. if any weight is to be added to the bmw, then the rx7 and z cars need to take a hit too to bring everyone down to mercedes and honda range....;-)

marshall

I'd agree with the above posts regarding the RX7 and Z cars. An additional suggestion would be to take off some of the weight of the Acuras and Hondas instead of making THEM add a large amount of ballast as is already the case.

[chuck baader]

With competition adjustments, the SCCA will try to establish parity between the makes within a class. IMHO, parity already exists when the best prepared "S" cars in the country -- three separate makes -- run within 1/2 second of each other at the ARRC. Why would the competition board want to upset apparent parity? CB

[Bruce Shafer]

Where can I find the name and address of the Chair of the Club Racing Board or what ever it is called these days? I've checked SportsCar and the SCCA website and didn't find what I was looking for.

I have the baseline dyno information to share. A couple HP more than I thought, but easily less than 200 RWHP and nowhere near the hysterical claims found on this forum.

[Ron Earp]

Mustang Dyno or Dynojet Dyno? I've only seen Dynojet rear wheel numbers for E36s, Mustang Dynos produce lower numbers than the Dynojets do, but it doesn't really matter since in most cases all anyone is interested in is differences from modifications.

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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[Bruce Shafer]

Mustang Dyno

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Bruce Shafer:
Where can I find the name and address of the Chair of the Club Racing Board or what ever it is called these days?

I agree that the SCCA site is difficult to navigate, but all the "Boards and Committees" information can be found at the following link:

Inside SCCA => Boards and Committees

The CRBs address is: [email protected]


So, you were complaining about the Andy not posting the dyno sheets from his sources... Are you willing to post yours? Open communication goes both ways...

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited November 10, 2004).]

[ITANorm]

From what I've seen, Mustang #'s run 14 - 24% lower than Dynojet #'s for the same car. My only #'s are off a Mustang, and comparison with cars whose engines were built the same and by the same builder bears this out (91.3 on the Mustang vs. 106.8 on the Dynojet). FWIW, Dyna-Pak numbers are much more similar to the Mustang.

So, if your Mustang #'s are below 178, you might have a case.

[This message has been edited by ITANorm (edited November 10, 2004).]

[Greg Amy]

I applaud your offering dyno info, Bruce, but I'm certain it will be taken with a grain of salt. I'm sure you can understand that offering up personal info with no oversight and no knowledge of prep (and your self-recognition that your car is not prepped to the extreme of possibilities), your data will be seen as self-serving and is, honestly, tainted.

However, this is the proper way to begin the dialogue.

Chuck, I see where you're getting at, however I don't agree with your conclusion. I wasn't there, so all I have for evidence is the results sheet. Even so, it seems pretty obvious to me.

The top three cars were all BMWs, within a half-second of each other. Of the top-ten cars, 70% were BMWs, whereas less than half the field was a BMW(11 of 28 starters). Let's not forget that had Ed York finished the race, there is NO DOUBT he would have been top-5, so the score would have been 8 of the top-ten cars for BMW. Of that same top ten there were two RX-7s; we don't know Rick's times, unfortunately, but Nick best was within a half-second (we'll call it) of the leader.

No disrepect or minimization of the others' work, but if we want to do a good tete-a-tete, I'd suggest we compare Nick Leverone to Chet Wittel. Both are accomplished drivers in (I believe) top-prep cars.

Given that, there's one little piece of data that you're overlooking: the margin of victory. Chet Wittel won the ITS race with a nearly 8 second margin of victory over the second place BMW. The results sheet doesn't show it, but what was Chet's margin over Nick Leverone? Was it even close? I really doubt it.

There's no disagreeing that Nick and Rick did a fantastic job placing top-5 in their RX-7s, but I don't think there's a reasonable person in this forum that has any doubt that the BMW has a distinct and obvious competitive advantage. - GA

[Bruce Shafer]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
[email protected]

So, you were complaining about the Andy not posting the dyno sheets from his sources... Are you willing to post yours?

I stated several pages ago in this thread that I would share my Dyno information with the Club Race Board. Once the board has had ample time to review, I will post them to this forum.

BTW, I wasn't complaining, Andy was throwing out outrageous HP numbers like it was fact. I called him on it. Turns out, his numbers couldn't be substantiated. Mine can.

[Bruce Shafer]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
(and your self-recognition that your car is not prepped to the extreme of possibilities

Where was it ever stated that my car is not prepped to the extreme? The only item I don't have is MOTEC. Don't make assumptions.

The car was dyno'd exactly as it came off the track at Sebring setting the short course record (as Andy and his sources claim).

I expected the dyno results to be diminished by the sycophants, so I haven't been disappointed. This is all I have to say on this subject on this forum at this time.

[Greg Amy]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Where was it ever stated that my car is not prepped to the extreme? The only item I don't have is MOTEC. Don't make assumptions.</font>

I didn't make assumptions: you have now (twice) admitted your car is not prepped to the extreme of possibilities. When you do that, feel free to resubmit your results for peer review.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I expected the dyno results to be diminished by the sycophants...</font>

I race a front-wheel-drive 135hp Nissan in (now) ITA; I have no need to curry favor with you or your competitors. And, unlike you, I have no ulterior motives or agenda.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">This is all I have to say on this subject on this forum at this time.</font>

[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, I sincerely doubt that.

[Geo]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
I wasn't there, so all I have for evidence is the results sheet. Even so, it seems pretty obvious to me.

I was there. Didn't look like parity to me.

Also, despite the attempt of some to spin PCAs as comp adjustments, they are not. Yes, they are a mechanism to adjust weights, but this will not be a annual process of adjustments (although initially some weights may be tweaked for a year or two), but PCAs are there to correct some errors of the past.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[mlytle]

quote: "Of the top-ten cars, 70% were BMWs, whereas less than half the field was a BMW(11 of 28 starters). Let's not forget that had Ed York finished the race, there is NO DOUBT he would have been top-5, so the score would have been 8 of the top-ten cars for BMW."

hmmm, so say if an rx7 finished first and a 240z finished second and the rest of the top 10 were bmw's, then bmw's would still be the bad overdog just because there were a lot of them in the top ten?

the number of bmw's in the top ten is completely irrelevant to this discussion. that is only a quantity measure. the discussion here is around the potential of a type of car. only the top examples of each kind of car are relevant.

[robits325is]

What about driver experience? The top three positions at the ARRC were local drivers from Georgia. Bring those same three cars and same drivers to Lime Rock or NHIS and watch Nick walk away.

Set-up and experience make a big difference.

[mlytle]

excellent point about set up and the drivers. it also leads to the "margin of victory" point someone else was making. someone who is very familiar with a track is generally going to make fewer mistakes over the course of a race. consistently leads to larger margins just as much as car prep does.

[Ron Earp]

As one that has dynoed a lot of cars of the years on dynos all I can say is that that thing has 185-190hp (guessing from his post) rear wheel hp on a Mustang Dyno, then it is a very strong engine. Mustang dynos do indeed read lower than Dynojet dynos. Dynojet numbers are the ones I refer to in my posts on rear wheel hp and are the numbers that most people refer to when quoting rear wheel numbers since there are many of them around the country.
Ron

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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited November 10, 2004).]

[Tom Donnelly]

When Chet won the ARRC in a 240z against Syl in a Speedsource RX-7, the margin of victory was more like .00008 sec than 8 seconds. They were side-by-side thru turn 12 at the end.

How's that for a fair comparison? It showed parity between the 240z and the RX-7. Very few BMW's that year. It must have been the RR shocks.

Tom

[chuck baader]

I think the proper statement is: "what goes around comes around". Not being around when the 40k Speedsource 7s were dominating, I assume there was a lot of discussion about their performance. Fast forward to Chet's and John William's Z cars that started dominating. Next fast forward to the current BMWs that the fast/moneyed boys have gone to. (Money buys speed, how fast do you want to spend?) Now this new car becomes the dominate make. Next year...who knows? Assuredly something will come along that the fast/moneyed boys will switch to that will become the dominate car.

Really, 8 of the first 10 cars one make...sure it should win!!! If a Z or 7 car had won it would be an upset based on pure odds! Chuck