Beetle in ITC

[Bill Miller]

300!!!


(In just 9 days!!!)

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[captdanh]

I Had to do a double take here. I thought I was on the Production web site!

[16v]

Originally posted by Knestis:
I have a proposal to help resolve this issue: Each person who's participated in this conversation can put $200 in the kitty, we'll have an independent shop build a full-boat engine for my MkIII, and I'll post copies of the dyno sheets for anyone who wants to see them...

K

why not skip the BS and go over to VWvortex and ask the NB or 2.0 owners themselves. They will gladly provide dyno numbers and sheets. That's where I got my info



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Doug
NER.org
the16v.com
briansgarage.com

[planet6racing]

But, Doug, why would we want to confuse this all with facts? You can use facts to prove anything remotely true! (thanks to Homer Simpson for that one!)

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Knestis]

Originally posted by 16v:
why not skip the BS and go over to VWvortex and ask the NB or 2.0 owners themselves. ...

A. Because VWV NB owners are full of crap and will lie high

B. Because my BS idea gets me a new engine

C. All of the above

K

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
300!!!

(In just 9 days!!!)

Bill,

Is this a record?

G

[itbgti]

Sorry for asking this (I know it was in one of the 300 posts.....):

What is the weight the NB has to be at for ITC (~2700?)

What size wheel does it have to run?

Thanks,
Alan

[Geo]

Originally posted by 16v:
why not skip the BS and go over to VWvortex and ask the NB or 2.0 owners themselves. They will gladly provide dyno numbers and sheets. That's where I got my info

They've already built and dyno tested an IT legal engine for the NB?


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[turboaudi80]

Here is a copy of an email I sent to Andy B.

If I can ever drag Tim Mullen to the dyno, we can at least get some #'s for the A3 2.0

Andy,

I hear that there is a big stir on the IT list about the NB in ITC. Here is my take, as a professional in the business of making these cars:

15" minimum wheels -- the smallest VW makes in that bolt pattern.
Nice brakes -- better than the 93 ITB golf
Similar motor to the 93 ITB golf (same head+lesser low end+better engine managemnt= a wash)
The transmission is more durable, but it doesn't really need it in IT trim.
probably stiffer chasis, never a bad thing
Aero CD? don't know.

Sounds like an ITB or ITA car to me, may be with a little less weight than 2700.

Let me know what you think, because we have a 99 at the shop right now.

Eli Garrett
Manager
Shine Racing Service
44 Production Rd.
Walpole, MA 02081
508-660-7974

[ITSRX7]

Just talked with Eli on the phone (he is a personal friend as well).

Data pertinent to this thread:

1. Cam is the limiting factor on this motor
2. 144HP? "No way on a legal motor"
3. Dominant in ITC? "Not at 2760."

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited August 03, 2004).]

[grjones1]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
Just talked with Eli on the phone (he is a personal friend as well).
Data pertinent to this thread:
1. Cam is the limiting factor on this motor
2. 144HP? "No way on a legal motor"
3. Dominant in ITC? "Not at 2760."
AB

OK Andy, I want to present this with as little possibility of incrimination or paranoia as possible, but this is the way the thought process goes when one reads these things:

At fisrt Eli reports: "Sounds like an ITB or ITA car to me, may be with a little less weight than 2700. Let me know what you think, because we have a 99 at the shop right now." Sounds like some of the things I've (GRJ) said may indeed be well founded. Guy at Shine (premiere IT VW builder) thinks it should be a B car.)

Then after he (a "personal friend of yours") talks to you on the phone "cam is limiting factor...; 144, no way; dominnant in ITC, not at 2760..."

OK what changed his mind after he talked to you? And is the G-grind legal for the car? Because that might relieve the "limiting factor" on Hp.

He has a '99 at the shop (ready to build for someone?)
OK, I think I perceive some contradiction. I may very well be wrong. I do not believe you have any underhanded motives other than wanting your original decision to be justified - which is of course not unreasonable. But do you see how I may perceive statements when they appear not to agree always with themselves? Did he talk about the gearing?
If you have time, please clarify.
GRJ

[itbgti]

I hate to speak for others, but this is my interpretation (I have spoken with both Eli and Andy today...I HATE name dropping)

The car is a perfect candidate for ITC based on many factors...most important, weight. At 2760, it is a perfect fit for ITC. Now, as Andy has said in past quotes, if this car begins to dominate the ITC field (i.e. shattering track records) then it WILL be corrected. However, many people (including yours truly) does believe that this is a good fit as it stands today.

To get it down to a weight for ITB, MAY be difficult (I dont think anyone has tried yet)...but time and experience will tell. I personally would like this car as another ITB VW option...it could be pretty damn cool....but obviously not at its current weight.

ITA--I really dont think that car should ever be in A.

I forget who said it (kudos and credit given)...but Spec Bug is a GREAT idea...maybe not in the near future, but it is out there....somewhere...waiting...for youuuuuuuu.

Regards,
Alan

[badal]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
300!!!


(In just 9 days!!!)

Big deal-These guys are up to 27 pages:
http://forum.1320stangs.com/index.php?show...topic=5555&st=0



------------------
"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by grjones1:
OK Andy, I want to present this with as little possibility of incrimination or paranoia as possible, but this is the way the thought process goes when one reads these things:

At fisrt Eli reports: "Sounds like an ITB or ITA car to me, may be with a little less weight than 2700. Let me know what you think, because we have a 99 at the shop right now." Sounds like some of the things I've (GRJ) said may indeed be well founded. Guy at Shine (premiere IT VW builder) thinks it should be a B car.)

Then after he (a "personal friend of yours") talks to you on the phone "cam is limiting factor...; 144, no way; dominnant in ITC, not at 2760..."

OK what changed his mind after he talked to you? And is the G-grind legal for the car? Because that might relieve the "limiting factor" on Hp.

He has a '99 at the shop (ready to build for someone?)
OK, I think I perceive some contradiction. I may very well be wrong. I do not believe you have any underhanded motives other than wanting your original decision to be justified - which is of course not unreasonable. But do you see how I may perceive statements when they appear not to agree always with themselves? Did he talk about the gearing?
If you have time, please clarify.
GRJ

...and I knew this was coming. I stated Eli is a freind in the interest of full-disclosure. As with all ITAC members, we have nothing to hide.

I called Eli because he works for one of the most respected VW tuners in teh country. I too, wanted his take - and he wanted mine. Since he has a real job that doesn't allow him to follow a 300+ post thread, he wrote up the e-mail to me and then sent it to this list.

After I explained the thought process and the calulation process and theories, he agrees that, at 2760lbs, it won't be a killer in ITC. At first look, he thought ITB along with the A3 they just completed for a customer. I told him it wasn't entirely impossible that we could experiment with the A4 Golf in ITB at 2450 while this car runs in ITC at 2760. *I* think it's a great idea.

Furthermore, we talked about the engine and it's ability to make power. It's strengths and weaknesses, etc. 144hp? No way.

So - what does the guy at Shine REALLY think? He thinks it could get down close to ITB weight - but is also convinced it isn't the right choice in ITC at 2760.

Sorry to burst your bubble!

..and the G-grind cam being legal for this car??? Why would you even ask that? Of course it isn't.

AB
(edit - spelling)

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com



[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited August 03, 2004).]

[grjones1]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:

Sorry to burst your bubble!
AB

No bubbles burst. First, I feel pretty good. My "knee-jerk reaction" was the same as Eli's: the NB is a B car. He too feels it could get down to B weight (same as I). I was wrong in my Hp estimates, but so were you guys, remember you estimated 144, the same as I? Now our only differences are (again no input on the gearing or whether the G-grind is allowed on it) you want to "experiment" for what I believe you believe are good reasons in that you see it as rejuvenation of the class. I see the experimentation as threatening the integrity (competitiveness) of the class.

I started this whole thing off on the wrong foot (in anger) for that I don't feel pretty good. For intuitively perceiving a B car being placed in C, I don't believe I am entirely wrong. But as you have hammered in "we'll see." Again Good Racing and thank you for your forthrightness, your candor, and perhaps even your patience.

G. Robert Jones
ITC 22 Ford Fiesta
WDCR
N 175061

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited August 03, 2004).]

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by grjones1:
No bubbles burst. First, I feel pretty good. My "knee-jerk reaction" was the same as Eli's: the NB is a B car. He too feels it could get down to B weight (same as I). I was wrong in my Hp estimates, but so were you guys, remember you estimated 144, the same as I? Now our only differences are (again no input on the gearing or whether the G-grind is allowed on it) you want to "experiment" for what I believe you believe are good reasons in that you see it as rejuvenation of the class. I see the experimentation as threatening the integrity (competitiveness) of the class.

I started this whole thing off on the wrong foot (in anger) for that I don't feel pretty good. For intuitively perceiving a B car being placed in C, I don't believe I am entirely wrong. But as you have hammered in "we'll see." Again Good Racing and thank you for your forthrightness, your candor, and perhaps even your patience.

G. Robert Jones
ITC 22 Ford Fiesta
WDCR
N 175061

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited August 03, 2004).]

Now this is a post I can get my arms around. Thanks for the 'tone'!

I can see how the first reaction would be ITB. It was ours too. But I think that the weight it can get to would have it languishing in ITB forever. Your first post was just plain over the top.

As far as the power, I personally feel vindicated from some of the comments in this thread. We use a 25% POTENTIAL adder for engines of this design (4cyl sohc, smallish in size). Estimates from top engine builder? 138ish. Keyword? LEGAL. Eli personally doesn't run the G-grind in his VW...they know there are TONS of used stock cams out there...that's how 'legal' the local Shine cars are.

I stand by our decision but also stand by the committment to fix the problem should we upset the competitive balance in ITC.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Bill Miller]

Andy,

The curb weight on the A4 Golf is ~45# less than that of a NB. How do you think the Golf will be able to make 2450#, but the NB won't? Is the NB perceived to be that close to making 2450#?

Robert, the G-grind cam hasn't worked in a VW since the A1 chassis cars. It's a solid lifter cam, and all the gas motors from the A2 on, have used hydraulic lifters. Probably not a bad idea to do a little research before making flip comments.

Al,

Yeah, but they're mustang guys that drag race.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Andy,

The curb weight on the A4 Golf is ~45# less than that of a NB. How do you think the Golf will be able to make 2450#, but the NB won't? Is the NB perceived to be that close to making 2450#?

Experiment...

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Knestis]

I for one am glad that the current regime is willing to take some chances. It was extreme conservatism that put 2-liter Hondas and Neons in ITS and I am not sad to see that tradition fade away...

K

[Greg Amy]

You know, I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one...