Ways to reduce illegal cars? New methods? (just a bit long

[SilverHorseRacing]

While I'm not against casual looks at my car, and openly will show people who come and ask nicely, I do have a problem with "grading by peers". For one thing, it's not up to my competition to determine my car's conformity to the rules. It IS their responsibility to file a protest, but at that point, it is an IMPARTIAL third party's responsibility to determine legality. Second, let's say I have the fastest widget ring in my exhaust that makes your muffler bearing obsolete, and is totally legal. I really am not going to want to tell you how to install it, where to get it, and all that. But if you're going over my car with a fine-tooth comb, you might just figure out how to do it, and next weekend, you've got one too.

How do you think I learned a bunch of my tricks? I looked at other people's ideas, and drew the best conclusions I could for my own car. I did this with their knowledge, and with their consent. Being forced to walk someone through my car's construction that had a vested interest in learning my secrets (if any ) is not exactly the brightest idea, IMHO. Of course, maybe you want to show me every little trick and every obscure part from the vehicle's spec line, so that I can go duplicate it next week. If that's the case, just show me your goods so I can copy it. Part of the fun of this sport is the creativity in development of the car. If I want my car to look like everyone else's, I'll go buy a spec miata.



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-Marcello Canitano
www.SilverHorseRacing.com

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by SilverHorseRacing:
While I'm not against casual looks at my car, and openly will show people who come and ask nicely, I do have a problem with "grading by peers". For one thing, it's not up to my competition to determine my car's conformity to the rules..... <snip>

I understand your point completely. But I think Greg was suggesting more of a "heads up" pow wow.

Bob over there with the ITC car is turning laps faster than most fast ITA cars...and he's in a car that a lot of folks have raced over the years. Seems unusual, esp. as Bob has had the same car for years and suddenly is 2 seconds a lap faster. So a group decides to have a chat, and see if they can discover the reason. Maybe Bob is on the new trick Avon tires that nobody knows about...or maybe he has something else that can explain it. Or maybe not, and Bob makes a note to himself, goes home and puts the stock displacement engine with the right throttle body, and the right cam, and the right compression back in the car. And next week he's back to normal, or closer to legal. (don't laugh at the above scenario, I know too much not to believe such things have and do happen)

If not, then it is up to the group whether to write paper. Maybe Bob has a trick widget that explains it, and is completely legal. Impartial tech folk look at it, and pronounce it clean and legal. His secret is safe, and his times are to be admired. He might be upset at the teardown, but smuggly proud at the same time.

I see the "intervention" idea as a nice first step, to help avoid the ugliness of a protest, and if the result is the same, then its all cool, right?

Actually a personal "oh, by the way..you seem awfully fast" comment can go a long way before an "intervention" is even required.


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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[gran racing]

The open hood idea is a nice gesture, but I'm not so sure if legality can be determined by that. The first few times it happens, it might shake things up a bit. In the long run though, I am not sure that it would solve some of the illegal cars. Those people would gain a comfort level knowing that without a tear down, their car is safe.

I still like the "community" approach to people that are suspected of cheating.

Hey, I have an idea. Make the person you suspect of cheating drink a 12 pack of beer then ask him/her if they are cheating. O.k. So this idea won't fly but it just might work!

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[SilverHorseRacing]

I have no problem with the community or individual approach. I've gone right up to people I either have suspected or factually known were not in compliance, and talked about it directly with them. Normally, this fixes the problem, and we move on. Sometimes, they don't even know they are outside the rules, or sometimes they think nobody cares. In either case, I would never write paper until I went to them first. And yes, I think you're a jerk if you would write paper without going to the offender first, since everyone makes mistakes.

What I was having a problem with is when it is mandated that a group go over someone else's car. That just doesn't sit well with me, no matter how innocent the intention, the end result would be a witch hunt, with nobody winning, and the club as a whole losing.

The current system works well enough, and given the amount of time we already don't have during a weekend, I doubt we could muster much more scrutiny than we do now. Is it just me, or does anyone else have things they need to do besides crawl under someone else's car?

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-Marcello Canitano
www.SilverHorseRacing.com

[ITSRX7]

I still fail to see any issues with people going in, around and under a legal car.

It's done in Solo all the time and it keeps the perception of cheating down to a minimum. You will never catch the internal stuff without a teardown. Witch-hunt? I doubt it. If anything, it clear the air when your car looks like the next one - or has all legal stuff on the outside.

Look me over, ask me questions. The fact you think I am cheating is the ultimate compliment to my driving and my preparation.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

"The fact you think I am cheating is the ultimate compliment to my driving and my preparation.

AB"


well put, if your legal your waving people over to check your ride, the reason I put such attention to detail on my cars is for others eye candy.

[Geo]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Bob over there with the ITC car is turning laps faster than most fast ITA cars...and he's in a car that a lot of folks have raced over the years. Seems unusual, esp. as Bob has had the same car for years and suddenly is 2 seconds a lap faster. So a group decides to have a chat, and see if they can discover the reason. Maybe Bob is on the new trick Avon tires that nobody knows about...or maybe he has something else that can explain it.

Enzyte


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[gran racing]

Marcello,
A jerk to fill out paper? I guess we need to clarify how you are approaching this subject. We're not talking about some of the minor things that may give a slight advantage. The bigger stuff that the person knows that they are cheating by doing. Cams, lightened fly wheel, very high compression.

I would agree with you about filling out paper work because your wheel extends 1/4" out too far, missing your horn, the ballast is located 6" to far to the rear, ect. No huge performance gain and like you said, there may not be intent here. I honestly wouldn't care about any of that stuff.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[OTLimit]

Originally posted by SilverHorseRacing:
While I'm not against casual looks at my car, and openly will show people who come and ask nicely, I do have a problem with "grading by peers". For one thing, it's not up to my competition to determine my car's conformity to the rules. It IS their responsibility to file a protest, but at that point, it is an IMPARTIAL third party's responsibility to determine legality.

The only problem I have with this is that most of our impartial third parties don't have a real clue.

Just as a test, at your next race casually check out your stewards, and whether or not you trust them to correctly cc a motor with what equipment they have at the track.

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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[Geo]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
I still fail to see any issues with people going in, around and under a legal car.

I think the point Marcello was trying to point out was "theft" of ideas. Seeing someone's better solution. Or seeing something that is radically different, but totally legal that sends you hope scratching your head trying to figure it out.

I can understand his point. I'm not totally in agreement with it, but I am somewhat. And I'm not a secretive type. If someone asks what I've done, I'll tell them, sometimes too much and in too much detail - especially to someone with the same car. But it's a different deal when you are forced to show everyone what you've done (even legally).



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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[racerdave600]

Back in our Nascar days, the officials would travel to the track with a portable dyno, and as you came off, they could confiscate your car for a dyno run. They usually always picked one of the 3 makes, and not always the top finishers, but that was usually the case. Other than the crew helping "load" the car, no one was allowed to see the results. They were "classified" not only to you, but also to your competitors. Generally you could find out how far "off" you were, but that's about it. Never the actual numbers. It seemed fair, and no one complained. The theory was, if you wanted actual numbers, dyno it yourself. They were only looking at keeping it all fairly even, and monitoring what was going on. Once a motor was spec'd, no matter what you did, you could only get so much power legally, and they knew it.

As for cheating, I had this very discussion with our region's RE just last week. He's also the head of tech at Road Atlanta, and expressed interest in catching more people, but commented that not all tracks have the knowledge and manpower for complete teardowns at every event, or are familiar enough with each make and model. It would more than likely take a team from Topeka that traveled to accomplish it, or more training, and more tech personnel.

On a related note, I have a friend running SSB this year. At Daytona a few weeks ago, he passed all the Hondas but one, and it was waaayyy faster than the others. Several people commented that if they knew what to protest, they would have done it a long time ago. The problem is, this driver never goes to nationals where a teardown is mandatory. Perhaps the way protests are handled needs to be looked at...although that's opening up an entirely different set of problems.

In my opinion, there's a difference between looking for the maximum out of the car in terms of set up, motor building, etc., and blatently cheating. If I had to cheat to win, I'd just as soon stay home!

I've worked on a couple of national championship cars, and they were so legal it hurt! I think most people would be suprised at how legal some of the really fast guys are.

Just my .02

Dave

[Knestis]

A lot of bandwidth has been burned up on this topic and I've yet to see much in the way of suggestions that address the culture in which competitors essentially endorse cheating.

It WOULD be cool if someone could be paid to be "bad cop" but it's not going to happen in SCCA club racing. Never. It's just too contrary to people's expectations.

K

[SilverHorseRacing]

George, you saw what I was trying to say exactly. I too am guilty of telling my competition way too much information about what to run, how to set it up, etc... and I openly show my car to most anyone. The problem I had was when I am forced to show my car to a bunch of people who I may or may not want to see my car.

As to others saying it wouldn't be a witch hunt, what are you really thinking? You're sending a group of people, who may or may not know what they are looking at, to go and try and find illegalities on a given car. It's kind of like inspectors and traffic cops, they only justify their existence by writing paper. I'm not saying there doesn't need to be building codes or traffic laws in school zones, but you see where I'm going. (hopefully)

Anyway, Kirk's right. Too much time on this already. I have a car to prep for the rest of this season.


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-Marcello Canitano
www.SilverHorseRacing.com

[zracer22]

IT cheating is a topic that we all feel stongly about and almost everyone of us has something to say about it. All the talking in the world won't address the issue. Like said earlier, racing will always have cheaters. Not just in racing, but every form of cometition has it. Sammy Sosa uses cork, Ben Johnson used steriods. Some get caught and some don't.
IT racing in 2004 is much different than IT racing in 1989. The SCCA has created an atmoshere that invites cheating in IT racing. IT is no longer entry level racing. 15 years ago, people didn't "develope" IT cars. They run what they brung. Now you see IT teams with World Challenge budgets, new Hoosiers every weekend, $40,000 professionally built cars. It's no wonder that people go too far in their search for a little competitive edge. It is now the nature of the beast, and we're stuck with it. Had IT remained as originally intended, we wouldn't even be talking about this. Sure, there were IT cheaters 15 years ago, but 98% of the time they were caught. But the tide had changed. When everyone was using illegal ECU chips, the SCCA just made them legal. What a horrible position to take on cheating.

Back to the original topic: Ways to reduce illegal cars? New methods? There are no new methods. We should have harsh penalties and real deterrents. It will cost big $$$, but what in racing doesn't. Make it manditory that at each event, 3,4,5,? podium cars are completely inspected. If a cheat is caught suspend their license for 1 year, ban the car from racing for 1 year, and a $2500 fine that must be paid before the suspension is lifted. And publish it in Fastrack. It's foolish to think that there is a cheap and easy solution to the problem. Right now there is no incentive to NOT cheat.

[Quickshoe]

Zracer22,

While I agree that the penalties for cheating aren't harsh enough, I hardly feel that there isn't an incentive not to cheat.

I don't cheat because of my pride and integrity.

I think that the problem with the current system is that we need to be too specific about the items being protested. However, we can't just have people being completely torn down looking for what is wrong. I don't know what the solution is...

I think it is rediculous to not weigh every car that comes off of the track. At the very least that should be done.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by zracer22:
All the talking in the world won't address the issue.

I disagree. Talking about it amongst ourselves, and broadcasting that it is not acceptable will have an effect on some folk who are borderline. Any reduction is a good reduction.
It also sets standards for new guys, who are looking to get with the program. If the program is "everybody cheats, thats just the way it is", then guess what? They will too. If they hear that it isn't acceoted and those that do are thought of as scum, then thye will most likely be clean. never underestimate the power of peers.

IT racing in 2004 is much different than IT racing in 1989. The SCCA has created an atmoshere that invites cheating in IT racing. IT is no longer entry level racing.

If IT isn't what is? IT may not be entry level winning but where else can you buy a mid pack roadrace car for four thousand dollars and race against 25 guys in your class? Nationwide?

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> 15 years ago, people didn't \"develope\" IT cars. They run what they brung. Now you see IT teams with World Challenge budgets, new Hoosiers every weekend, $40,000 professionally built cars. It's no wonder that people go too far in their search for a little competitive edge. It is now the nature of the beast, and we're stuck with it. Had IT remained as originally intended, we wouldn't even be talking about this. Sure, there were IT cheaters 15 years ago, but 98% of the time they were caught. </font>

Oh really? How were they caught?? A cam today is the same as a cam in 1990. Tell me how all these guys were caught, and we will do the same thing today.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> Back to the original topic: Ways to reduce illegal cars? New methods? There are no new methods. We should have harsh penalties and real deterrents. It will cost big $$$, but what in racing doesn't. Make it manditory that at each event, 3,4,5,? podium cars are completely inspected. If a cheat is caught suspend their license for 1 year, ban the car from racing for 1 year, and a $2500 fine that must be paid before the suspension is lifted. And publish it in Fastrack. It's foolish to think that there is a cheap and easy solution to the problem. Right now there is no incentive to NOT cheat. </font>

Again, I disagree. My honesty, integrity and honor are at stake. In the end it's all you have.

I agree with your points regarding penalties and costs, but it can get pretty severe in certain cases as it is. First the net needs to actually catch fish, before we decide how hot to fry 'em.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited June 03, 2004).]

[gran racing]

Many people have said what we can't do and the impact it will have. I guess we need to approach this in baby steps.

Talking about it really is the first step. I believe I stated this before, but how many people really understand the protest process? Heck, I've read the GCR several times and still really don't have enough understanding of it. You hear about the bond that would need to be purchased. O.k. Well, approximately how much would it cost to protest cams? I have no idea. Yeah, $100 is part of it and published in the GCR. But what are we talking about here? $500? 1,000? Really, I have no idea.

Realistically, what would it talk to write a good summary of the protest process, what steps need to be completed, advice on how to approach protests (learn as much as possible, don't make assumptions, speak with your peers)? And publish this yearly.

As a minimum, a region could publish this in their region's magazine. Knowledge is power.

To me the process is pretty intimidating.

I do really think something does need to be done about further discouraging intentional cheating.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[metalworker]

If you want to stop the cheating, and the bitching about the cheaters,we have got to be willing and have the ability to protest. This past weekend , to me , is a perfect example of why you can't catch the cheaters, and on the other side, stop the people bitching about the cheaters.
Driver A got his butt spanked at the last race by driver B. Driver A decides that instead of just bitching about it, he would do something. So he did his research, got the necessary info, including typical shop cost to do the inspection. At the beginning of the weekend, he made is intentions known. This could have been handled in a very gentlemenly way. Instead the steward allowed the engine builder to set bond amount. ( did I mention driver B works for said engine builder). Driver B was also allowed to leave as a result of his car breaking, therefore not allowing protest to happen even if funds could have been arranged. This matter could have been settled by the engine builder, to allow his stuff to be torn down, which may have proven how good a builder he is, or with the steward being a little more willing to do his job.
Another such thing occurred a year or so ago. A driver was too fast according to his competitors. They got their money together and protested. The protested driver then crashed into several of the guys that protested him. The stewards gave him a slap on the wrist for the driving, and threw out the mechanical protest because it was to late. I don't beleive that guy should have ever been allowed back.
Both of these cases nothing is settled. On one side, driver A still thinks driver B cheats, and on the other side driver B can continue to say that he has never been caught. Driver B will continue to get his rewards ( deserved or not, but not willing to prove it), and driver A is stuck with nothing he can do about it, except bitch which makes everybody think everybody else cheating. There is a system for solving these issues, but we must be willing to protest, we must be willing to prove ourselves legal, and the officials must be willing to allow this to happen.




[This message has been edited by metalworker (edited June 04, 2004).]

[Maddog]

[quote]Originally posted by metalworker:
....At the beginning of the weekend, he made is intentions known.....[quote]

Did he actually file a protest or did he just talk about it? If the protest was not filed then the driver can leave when his car breaks.

[metalworker]

The protest went far enough that the steward got involved. I'm not blaming the two drivers for what occurred. I'm not sure that I wouldn't have left also, if my car was broken. I don't know of many people that would have just hang around. It is not very much fun to just sit and watch if you were planning to be involved.