Trial Balloon - Retaining ABS?

[Geo]

Originally posted by grega:
That is not always true. My NX2000 "supposedly" used different front rotors and calipers for a car equipped with ABS (I say "supposedly" because in reality all US-market NXs came with the bigger brakes. Thus is the error in using specific examples as supporting evidence). It is very common to offer different components with and without ABS.

This is not a valid point. I have very specific knowledge of this situation and it is in error.

First of all, not all NX2000s came with the larger AD22VF brakes. There are NX2000s delievered to the US market with the smaller AD18V brakes. This has nothing to do with ABS. The larger brakes were part of a "sport package" that either all NXen came with in 91 and 92 or was offered in 93 as an optional package. The only thing I am unsure of here is whether in 91 and 92 the package was an option all cars came with or if it was standard equipment. I'm 100% certain of 93.

Furthermore, the issue of different brakes for ABS is simply a cataloging error. As Inventory Accounting Manager for Big A Auto Parts I saw a lot of brake catalogs. I also know that there are only a very few (<5 IIRC) companies that provide cataloging for replacement parts. They are all wrong. Just where this error started is unknown, but it is an error none the less.

Because of this, these points are not valid in this discussion.

That said, I'm sure there are examples of different brake set-ups on ABS vs non-ABS versions of other cars. But, we don't know the engineering reasons why, i.e., we don't know if brake were upgraded to accomodate a heavier car with a particular option package or some similar issue. We cannot hold this up as an example either because the reasons for different brake set-ups between ABS/non-ABS could be many.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...not all NX2000s came with the larger AD22VF brakes...</font>

I know it's way off topic, but...

Remember, George, while you may have worked for Big A, I personally ordered my car brandy-new from the factory specifically to turn it into a Showroom Stock B car. The only options I had at that time in regards to brakes were ABS or no ABS, nuttin' else.

And I have never, ever personally seen a US-spec NX2000 with anything other than ADV22F brakes. Canadian ones, yes, but not delivered to the good-ole-USA. I heard rumors and read on forums about others seeing it, but I'm certain you can determine for yourself the trustworthiness of information pulled off Internet forums.

I suspect the ones you saw (or read about) were either improper crash repairs (very common: "let's pull the front suspension parts off of a Sentra SE-R, they're all the same!"), production anomolies (which Nissan is infamous for), or possibly Canada-delivered cars.

Regardless, that's beside the point of this thread...

[Knestis]

Originally posted by Geo:
... Ricky Racer will never lock up his brakes and miss the turn.

That's not entirely true since Rick could still easily run out of front bite and understeer off of the corner. If he DOESN'T then he wasn't going as fast as the tires would let him in the first place.

It's like C. Smith's story about the famous driver who came in and hollered at him because, "the brakes faded at the end of the straight and scared the hell out of me!" Smith asked him if he went off: No. "Well then you weren't going fast enough."

Assuming for a minute that ABS WILL save Rick's ass in that situation, keeping him on the road: Who here honestly believes that he will be FASTER exiting that corner than even a reasonbly skilled driver w/o ABS who threshold brakes, gets the car turned in efficiently, and is on the gas early?

K

[JoelG]

My experience with my 87 BMW (I'm allowed to use ABS in BMW Club Racing) has been that if ABS actuates my stopping distances are increased and understeering off the end of the straight is a good possibility. The only difference I've noticed between using it and not is that if I make a mistake when I have ABS enabled is I don't get a flat spot. Given my experience I'd say its primary benefit is that it is a money saver. Since budget is my #1 priority I'd like to be able to use it all the time.

I also instruct at a lot of BMW Club Drivers Ed events and I can say that every generation of BMW ABS has been better than the one before. The ABS in the current generation BMWs (E46) is very, very good. Even so, given the choice, all the WC BMW teams still chose to go with a 'real' race brake setup.

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Knestis:
That's not entirely true since Rick could still easily run out of front bite and understeer off of the corner.

I actually have some in-car video of me locking up the front brakes WITH ABS enabled entering turn 8 at SIR (now Pacific Raceways) when I first began racing this car...



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Geo]

Originally posted by grega:
Remember, George, while you may have worked for Big A, I personally ordered my car brandy-new from the factory specifically to turn it into a Showroom Stock B car. The only options I had at that time in regards to brakes were ABS or no ABS, nuttin' else.

My mention of Big A was meant in reference to the cataloging being wrong and how it gets perpetuated. There are so few cataloging companies that if they make mistakes they just keep getting perpetuated. That is the case here. An error.

As for the brakes, I did say I was unsure of the option package, but I have verified that in 93 the smaller brakes were on some cars. It even shows up that way in the factory fiche.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by Knestis:
That's not entirely true since Rick could still easily run out of front bite and understeer off of the corner. If he DOESN'T then he wasn't going as fast as the tires would let him in the first place.

<snip>

Assuming for a minute that ABS WILL save Rick's ass in that situation, keeping him on the road: Who here honestly believes that he will be FASTER exiting that corner than even a reasonbly skilled driver w/o ABS who threshold brakes, gets the car turned in efficiently, and is on the gas early?

All well and good, but it still does not change the fact that this constitutes a competitive advantage.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[OTLimit]

Originally posted by Geo:
It seems everyone is forgetting that ABS will prevent wheel lock-up. So, Ricky Racer will never lock up his brakes and miss the turn.

Actually, what I see is Ricky Racer (aka Mr. Wanker) diving inside of a couple of more talented (okay, an assumption) drivers because he KNOWS he has ABS and it will stop, right? No. The car doesn't stop, doesn't turn, and takes out the cars he was trying to dive under. All it does is make him feel like a better driver until he really over drives the system.


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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[This message has been edited by OTLimit (edited July 21, 2004).]

[Knestis]

Originally posted by VTECAcuraGSR:
Knestis - I am the one on Honda-Tech that has the Integra GSR... What to do?

Sorry - I missed your post. I'm trying to figure out what your solution is...

K

[zracer22]

Originally posted by Knestis:
Okay - valid points all. But speaking theoretically for a moment, what happens down the road a few years when every newly classified car in IT comes only with ABS?
K

Every car in IT has a steering wheel lock that must be disabled!

[Knestis]

Hmm. Good try but safety-mandated. (Setting aside that it's a little silly since SS cars don't seem to be crashing at any great rate with the locks still operating.)

This is more like back in the day when cars were first coming with disc brakes in the front. Did SCCA require that they backdate to drums? There probably WAS some consideration in classification but...

K

[VTECAcuraGSR]

GregA sent me this

"This is a good topic for the Rules SEction. I suggest you re-post there.
Short answer: got a GCR? 11.2.1.E says sensors must be disconnect *or* removed. ITCS 17.1.4.D.6.c says brake lines are free, and you must use the factory master cylinder (even though it may be different for the non-ABS car.) All other ABS components may be removed.

See ABS discussion in the Rules Forum. Also contact Phil Phillips, as he's currently running a GSR in ITS and Honda Challenge, and I'm sure he's already gone through all this rigamarole."

With that said, I believe I should be ok. What I would have to do is get RS hardlines (easier then bending my own) as hard lines are open game. I would obviously need to remove all the abs garbage and then plumb in an aftermarket proporting valave using the stock GSR MC. I am not sure the dirrences between a non-abs GSR and abs GSR, but I would imagine they must be close.

What does everyone think about this?

Thanks!
-Jeremy Billiel

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by VTECAcuraGSR:
ITCS 17.1.4.D.6.c says brake lines are free, and you must use the factory master cylinder (even though it may be different for the non-ABS car.)

Guys.... Unless I've missed something along the way, if you are converting an ABS car to a non-ABS car (in other words, if the car was available either way...), then you should be free to replace the ABS master with the non-ABS unit...



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...then you should be free to replace the ABS master with the non-ABS unit...</font>

I disagree, therein lies the crux of my concerns from above. I'm open-minded: show me where the rules allow it? Remember, this car never came without ABS...

Edit: Darin, I read your post again, and I agree with you on your point that *if* the car/model was available without ABS, then you can swap master cylinders from the car without. However, the disagreements you and I have had within the thread above have been limited to - at least in my case - cars that did NOT come without ABS. AFAIK, the Acura GSR was an ABS-only model and the comments I sent to him were within the context of the legality of swapping in Acura RS brake parts. If this is incorrect, that the GSR was availabel without ABS, then let's tell Jeremy he can swap MCs and limit our rules debate to ABS-only cars - Greg

[This message has been edited by grega (edited July 23, 2004).]

[VTECAcuraGSR]

Greg - You are absolutley correct. The Acura Integra GSR NEVER came without ABS and there are also no siblings classed in ITS, so I can not update/backdate. Therefore, I think I am stuck with using the stoch ABS MC.

***I think....

-Jeremy

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by VTECAcuraGSR:
Therefore, I think I am stuck with using the stoch ABS MC.
-Jeremy

You speak of this as if it were a bad thing... What specifically are the differences between your stock ABS MC and, let's say, an RS non-ABS MC???

I can tell you from a Nissan Perspective, that the only difference between the ABS and non-ABS for the 240SX in 1998 was that the ABS has a slightly larger bore diameter and a single front brake line outlet. The bore diameter was not an issue, and the single front outlet was simply a matter of adding a "T" to separate the front brake fluid...

All I'm trying to get you guys to do is take an analytical look at the actual pieces BEFORE you start saying there is a real issue here... Your Factory Workshop Manual should have enough detailed information to at least give you the general specifications for comparison... It is only from this real information that we can make logical decisions... So, I am genuinely asking... WHAT are the differences?

Thanks,




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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[jlucas]

I don't want to inflame the discussion further but I do have a few items to add. I've read all the above posts and there are good points on both sides.

1) The in house driver training at work includes braking drills with ABS and without. Successfully passing this drill involves beating the ABS in a 5th wheel instrumented car. A majority of drivers have no problem accomplishing this on dry pavement, myself included.
2) ABS is different from car to car, and from one manufacturer to the next. Any arguement based on a specific example, is not very valid. Some systems go into absolute fits with race tires and pads. New systems are incredibly complex and tied into multiple systems and features and ECU's --> when these cars make it to IT age, I sure don't want to be trying to re-engineer them. Remember IT is supposed to be an affordable class (compared to Production).
3) Almost all cars come with ABS now. How long should we hold back the gates of change? Does it make any more sense to mandante 14" wheels for some of the new IT cars next year? I think "allow" is the key word. Let those that want to run ABS keep it and allow converstion to non-ABS for those with initiative and braking skill.
4) AFAIK at Honda, there are no flash programable ABS ECU's. ECU reprograming is not easily done but it is possible for say Nismo to come out with a part to sell that is better suited for track use than the stock part.
5) Yes, ABS helps a poor driver brake more effectively.

I'd be happy to dig up some more specific braking system information if the advisory board needs it.

Jeremy Lucas
Team Honda Research

[This message has been edited by jlucas (edited July 24, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by jlucas (edited July 25, 2004).]

[Knestis]

Jeremy is in a position to know about this stuff. Thanks for the input, J.

K

[cherokee]

Why not just do this.

1) currently classified cars stay where they are.

2) NEW (cars/model years that need a new line, or just make new years a different spec line) must keep ABS and class them how you seem fit.

Seems like a simple thing to me, the older cars don't have to look through the trash for all of the ABS stuff they just ripped out and new cars must leave it on. Even if they disable it they will still be toting around the extra 20 odd lbs. No adjustment for already classed cars (we all agree very bad) and the new cars will have had ABS from day one.

just an idea

[pfcs]

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