Trial Balloon - Retaining ABS?

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Knestis:
Since Darin gets to restate his point, I'll do the same: The whole purpose of IT was to create a relatively easy route to road racing, with minimal bolt-on modifications to stock vehicles.

Kirk, Like I stated, I'm NOT saying that the rule doesn't need to be reconsidered. But let's be realistic about WHY we are looking at it...

What you just described above is actually Showroom Stock. The purpose of IT is to:

"...provide the membership with the opportunity to compete in low cost cars with limited modifications, suitable for racing competition".

As some have stated, stock ABS may NOT be suitable for racing... I believe it's allowed in Touring and SS, so this probably isn't really the case.

I can promise you that, if ABS were allowed to be installed, it wouldn't be the newby that you guys would be worried about... It would be guys like me, who have the means and know how to take advantage of:

"Brake system circuitry may be revised..."

...to make the system work MUCH better, creating a serious competitive advantage in the process...

When people enter these classes, the do so with the knowledge that a certain level of modifications are going to be required to meet the rules. If they want no-mods, the SS is the place to start. After all, we ARE talking primarily about cars that are still SS legal, and will be for quite some time. As they decide to further develop the car, then at that time they would have the option of deciding as to whether or not they want to do the required modifications to be legal for the class...

I assure you that this isn't the only way that I'm looking at this, and I'm still VERY interested in considering other arguments, so please don't take this conversation as a personal attack, but rather a good hearted discussion exploring all angles of the issue at hand.

If we don't keep pushing each other this way, we might not get all angles of the discussion out there for consideration...

Tag... You're it!!

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited July 19, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

When you make the decision to build a racecar, you need to educate yourself as to what will be needed skillwise.....indeed, you may or may not have the capability to do some or all of the required modifications yourself.

It takes a certain degree of skill to modify high pressure brake components to be sure, but welding a cage isn't for everyone either. In comparision to the requirement to add a cage, the future competitor has the option NOT to modify an ABS equiped car by choosing a car that doesn't have it. Caveat emptor, so to speak....

I feel the two biggest issues are:

1- Any change that reduces or eliminates driving skill sets needs to be considered veerrry carefully. The bottom line is the fact that we are racing, and racing skills are major part of the equation. Diluting the need for skills must be avoided.

2- The second issue, and this is huge, is that it would be a post classification adjustment which will result in competition potential changes within each class, much as the ECU rule did. Very bad, IMHO.

I think the reasons NOT to allow ABS are big, and the reasons TO allow ABS are not as convincing....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited July 19, 2004).]

[Greg Amy]

With respect, equating switching pad material with a complete re-design and re-plumbing of a vehicle's hydraulic braking system indicates either a serious lapse in logic or a complete misunderstanding of the engineering involved.

Think of it this way: would you want to be in front of (pick your worst car-hacker's name here) going into Turn One, Lap One, after he self-engineers and completely re-plumbs the brakes on his (pick your worst-hacked car here)?

I don't.

[Knestis]

In the spirit of Darin's point above...

Originally posted by lateapex911:
[b]1- Any change that reduces or eliminates driving skill sets needs to be considered veerrry carefully. The bottom line is the fact that we are racing, and racing skills are major part of the equation. Diluting the need for skills must be avoided.

Power steering, aftermarket pedal pads, supportive seats, mirrors that actually allow rearward vision, predictable tires that don't go off in five laps, brake pads that don't fade, gearboxes with synchros, Centerforce clutches, dampers that damp effectively, 600* brake fluid. What else makes the driver's job easier than it once was? Why draw the line at ABS?

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">2- The second issue, and this is huge, is that it would be a post classification adjustment which will result in competition potential changes within each class, much as the ECU rule did. Very bad, IMHO.</font>

This presumes that ABS is a competitive advantage. Remembering that I'm advocating for stock, unmodified systems in lieu of the addition of prop valves, do you REALLY believe that an unskilled driver with ABS is going to be faster than a good shoe who can control threshold lock-up himself?

If so, what happens to the argument that ABS system balance will be messed up by adding racing pads, to the degree that we may as well chuck them completely?

Someone who is pissed off because someone might get to run ABS while he "tore his out" is telling me that he believes the former is the case. Is he not confident enough in his skills to believe that he can outbrake a system that is designed to limit braking power to keep Aunt Martha from understeering off of an offramp in the rain if a raccoon runs out in front of her?

Is this ALL about rain races? What proportion of the average season (not in Portland) gets run in the wet? Shouldn't I maybe get to choose whether I want my system optimized for rain rather than dry weather?

The "we can't police traction control" rationale doesn't sway me. We DON'T police a LOT of stuff that we CAN so that excuse sounds a lot like a red herring to me.

K


[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited July 19, 2004).]

[Geo]

As usually, I agree with Jake completely. He said it more eloquently than I would have.

I also have a hard time believing OEMs would engineer systems so bad that they cannot operate safely with the ABS disconnected. Come on. Especially in this litigeous society in the US. They HAVE to design in some sort of fail safe that will not endanger the driver and the passengers if the ABS fails as does actually happen. They simply MUST plan for this contingency.

Short of clear data from OEM engineers I'm going to be an extremely difficult sell here.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by grega:
With respect, equating switching pad material with a complete re-design and re-plumbing of a vehicle's hydraulic braking system indicates either a serious lapse in logic or a complete misunderstanding of the engineering involved.

With all due respect, Greg, thinking that removing ABS and making the vehicle brake properly without it takes a "Complete replumbing of a vehicle's hydraulic braking system" is hardly a complete understanding of the situation...

I've removed the ABS from my car, and, it's NOT that big of a deal... It's pretty simple really... send fluid to the front brakes and send fluid to the rear brakes...

Mine happens to have a bias valve plumbed in for an extra measure, but even this hardly took a rocket scientist...

It doesn't take any more skill than picking out the correct brake pad combination.

I just don't happen to agree with the notion that this is that complex an issue.

Oh, and I happen to agree with Jake's line of reasoning...


------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[ChrisCamadella]

Originally posted by Geo:

I also have a hard time believing OEMs would engineer systems so bad that they cannot operate safely with the ABS disconnected. Come on. Especially in this litigeous society in the US. They HAVE to design in some sort of fail safe that will not endanger the driver and the passengers if the ABS fails as does actually happen. They simply MUST plan for this contingency.

I don't disagree. I am sure that the OEM engineers designed the ABS system so that the car will stop just fine with the ABS inoperative.

But we're not talking about 'inoperative' here, we're talking about 'replumbmed'. And no, I don't think any OEM car manufacturer or its engineers thought, "Hmmm, let's see. If the owner of the car happens to disconnect the lines from the ABS controller, adds two tee fittings, a proportioning valve, and some new hoses, we have to make sure the system still works as designed, or we'll be liable for damages."

Again, I'm sure that all of the systems work fine when the fuse blows. But once you get out the wrenches, all bets are pretty much off.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily saying that we should run right out and allow folks to leave the ABS brakes connected, I'm just stating the other side of the argument...

Cheers,

Chris Camadella
ITS Porsche 944S

[Geo]

Originally posted by ChrisCamadella:
I don't disagree. I am sure that the OEM engineers designed the ABS system so that the car will stop just fine with the ABS inoperative.

But we're not talking about 'inoperative' here, we're talking about 'replumbmed'. And no, I don't think any OEM car manufacturer or its engineers thought, "Hmmm, let's see. If the owner of the car happens to disconnect the lines from the ABS controller, adds two tee fittings, a proportioning valve, and some new hoses, we have to make sure the system still works as designed, or we'll be liable for damages."

Again, I'm sure that all of the systems work fine when the fuse blows. But once you get out the wrenches, all bets are pretty much off.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily saying that we should run right out and allow folks to leave the ABS brakes connected, I'm just stating the other side of the argument...

Cheers,

Chris Camadella
ITS Porsche 944S

Unless there are proportioning valves inside the ABS controller, I don't see the issue. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I just don't see it. Furthermore, if there are proportioning valves in the ABS controller, then it should be a simple matter of putting them in a replumbed car.



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Banzai240]

OK, after thinking of this last night from a few different angles, I've come up with a couple of questions for you guys...

1) How much weight or how much of a "competitive adjustment" would you expect on a car that retains it's ABS system?

2) If it were an option to remove it, and a car were spec'd with an "ABS weight", and a "non-ABS weight"... HOW would you be able to confirm the ABS is enabled/disabled???


Thus far, there has been VERY little evidence presented that is compelling enough to get one to believe that ABS would NOT be an advantage... (if that were the case, then Nissan would have removed it from my former WC car, instead of doing the work they did to improve it...)

Considering that this IS a pertinent technology that is going to be used more and more as newer models get classified, I'd suggest that the price of technology is added classification weight.

Would it be fair, for instance for an ABS equiped car to be classified at, say 50lbs heavier? 75lbs heavier??? What's the cost of this technology??

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Knestis]

1. None. Setting different weights for different prep levels sets a dangerous precedent that is probably bad for the longer term than just sticking with the current ABS rule.

2. By the presence of connected ABS sensors.

What is the cost of building a new braking system? Remember that I'm talking about the new guy not wanting to tear into it since I THINK that ultimately the fast guys will want to take it out if they can.

K

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...Nissan would have removed (the ABS) from my former WC car, instead of doing the work they did to improve it...</font>

That's not a valid point, Darin.

At the time your car was in World Challenge, there were two options to preparers: stock brakes with ABS, or aftermaket four-piston brakes with ABS disabled. While most teams initially tried to go the ABS route, in the end they all ended up with bigger aftermarket brakes and no ABS. The WC rules were changed shortly thereafter to reflect that reality, and today they all run 13" rotors, 4-piston brakes, and racing master cylinders, pedals, you name it, but with ABS disabled.

Remember, everything has a context...

GregA

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by grega:
Remember, everything has a context...

GregA

Yes it does, and you left out one option... Stock brakes without ABS... which was also available on this model... (different master cylinder part number, otherwise the same calipers/rotors/pads...)

They tried to work with the ABS because they believed that it offered an advantage over the stock brakes without it... The allowances for full-tilt aftermarket brakes offer such a huge advantage over the stock stuff, that THIS is why they abandoned the ABS and stock stuff...

ABS offers an advantage over NON-ABS, everything else being equal... that is what I was trying to get at... On the 240SX ('97-'98)... there is no difference in the factory caliper and rotor between the ABS and non-ABS stuff, so the only differences were in the ABS-controller and the master cylinder...

But, rather that arguing about the validity of my points, I'd like to hear discussion concerning my previous post, and I've still yet to hear a convincing argument to negate the perceived/real performance advantage offered by ABS brake systems...


------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited July 20, 2004).]

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...they believed that it offered an advantage over the stock brakes without it...</font>

I disagree.

I can't speak to Nissan's motivations, but everyone else I knew at that time in WC never considered stock brakes without ABS; they were evaluating the value of ABS over bigger aftermarket brakes. ABS lost.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">ABS offers an advantage over NON-ABS, everything else being equal...</font>

I would tend to agree, but is that advantage so great that we effectively mandate a competitor to re-plumb all their brake lines if their car was never available without ABS?

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...there is no difference in the factory caliper and rotor between the ABS and non-ABS stuff...</font>

That is not always true. My NX2000 "supposedly" used different front rotors and calipers for a car equipped with ABS (I say "supposedly" because in reality all US-market NXs came with the bigger brakes. Thus is the error in using specific examples as supporting evidence). It is very common to offer different components with and without ABS.

However, my non-ABS car - fortunately - came with the same plumbing system, with a firewall-mounted distribution block to accomodate the lack of an ABS pump. If my car had been delivered with ABS it would have been a simple replacement of the ABS pump with distribution block, and replacement of the master cylinder.

Today's newer cars are not so fortunate. There are more and more cars that are not available without ABS. What are these owners going to do? They can't go to the dealer and buy a distribution block and master cylinder that never existed, so we're telling them, "hey, you're a racer, figure it out (or go race somewhere else.)"

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...rather that arguing about the validity of my points...</font>

When you provide those points as supporting evidence they become fair game for rebuttal.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...yet to hear a convincing argument to negate the perceived/real performance advantage offered by ABS brake systems...</font>

Well, you won't get it, Darin, simply because any student of basic logic knows that it's impossible to prove a negative. Therefore, I turn the tables on you: show evidence that proves ABS is a significant performance advantage. Provide evidence that will convince this group that by allowing ABS brakes you will overcome any perceived or real driver advantages over those without and will therefore be an unfair advantage.

Greg

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by grega:
Provide evidence that will convince this group that by allowing ABS brakes you will overcome any perceived or real driver advantages over those without and will therefore be an unfair advantage.

Greg

Judge for yourself:

ABS FAQs


If it makes a medicre driver better, it's a competitive advantage. If it takes less skill to slow the car, it's a competitive advantage. ETC. ETC...

Oh, and you can't go pulling pieces of conversations out and then claiming that I don't get it... I was giving a specific example, that obviously does not always apply, but was a good point of illustration.

Additionally, I think I've given more than enough examples to this point to show the competitive advantages of ABS, short of supplying actual test data. The rule is in place that requires ABS to be disabled... If you want the rule changed, you guys are going to have to make a convincing agrument as to why it needs to be changed. I'm not sure that the arguments that ABS is NOT a performance benefit are anything more than speculative and presumption, while the true benefits of ABS are pretty clearly defined.

So, again, I'm thick skulled... summarize for me again just how ABS is NOT a competitive advantage. I say it is, in part because it does the following:

1) Makes an average driver better by increasing his/her ability to threshold brake without having to rely on "feel", "skill", or whatever you want to call that which defines a really good driver.

2) Increases car control in wet or non-ideal conditions and makes the car more stable under braking

3) Can be programmed to react differently to different situations

4) Typically stops a car in dry conditions in a shorter distance than a car without it

5) Can be programmed to act as "traction control" even for those cars that were not orginally equiped with such features



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Knestis]

Innocent until proven guilty, right? If we are talking about skilled drivers on dry pavement, I don't buy #4 at this point - at least not until someone shows me the data. Your other points vary in their strength.

Since your car is a handy case study, Darin did you replace the MC with the non-ABS part? If so, how would the job have been different if that part weren't available?

(Note that I will just use an entire non-ABS system out of a donor Golf when I do mine: I don't really argue this point out of personal gain.)

I think it might be useful to make the distinction - for the purpose of analyzing the pro-ABS documentation at that link - between improving the average street-driving bonehead's skills and making up the difference between the lowest and highest ends of the continuum of club racer's skill level.

I guess that I presume that an Auberlen can maintain threshold braking at a level higher than the average wanker (say, me). Safe assumption? Further, I'd like to think that my skills in that area are greater than, say, my mother's. ABS is designed to save her butt on the street - a point that should be borne in mind when reading how great it is.

Understanding that ABS works by LIMITING braking - shutting it the hell off - is it going to out-perform Auberlen (assuming all of the other hardware is the same)? I have a VERY hard time believing that it will. The question is then whether ABS will help the wanker get unreasonably closer to those with real talent. If it does, is that a terrible thing? At the end of the day, it might end up being an inhibiting factor if the wankers aren't required to learn how to get the last couple of percent of stopping power out of their cars.

Again, the traction control issue is a red herring since tricking my ABS into that kind of system is no less legal than would be building the entire TC package from scratch. That's an enforcement issue.

HOWEVER, the question of "chipping" an ABS sytem to perform more optimal to specific race conditions may be closer to being a real issue. If I can remap my ABS depending on the Cf of the track surface, then the advantage might shift in favor of an antilock system. That's a fair concern.

You need to hear that this conversation has indeed surfaced issues that I hadn't considered...

K

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited July 20, 2004).]

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Knestis:
Since your car is a handy case study, Darin did you replace the MC with the non-ABS part? If so, how would the job have been different if that part weren't available?

No, I used the ABS cylinder, mostly because it was there, and because I liked the bore diameter better than the Non-ABS piece. It's also legal to do so (use the ABS one, that is...) The job would have been only slightly simpler with the stock piece, as it has two outlets for the front brake lines, where the ABS only had a single out line. I had to "T" the front lines together at the master to accomodate this.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I think it might be useful to make the distinction - for the purpose of analyzing the pro-ABS documentation at that link - between improving the average street-driving bonehead's skills and making up the difference between the lowest and highest ends of the continuum of club racer's skill level.</font>

Fair enough, but I was presenting the advantages of ABS, and that's what this information does. Have you tried looking for Cons of ABS on Google??? I find all kinds of info on what not to take to get firm "Abs"...

If you find something, please post it here...

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">HOWEVER, the question of \"chipping\" an ABS sytem to perform more optimal to specific race conditions may be closer to being a real issue. If I can remap my ABS depending on the Cf of the track surface, then the advantage might shift in favor of an antilock system. That's a fair concern.</font>

There is nothing stopping someone from doing this, and since we've started this conversation, I've read several pieces of information concerning doing just this...

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">You need to hear that this conversation has indeed surfaced issues that I hadn't considered...</font>

That's great... that's why I'm in this discussion. It goes both ways, so please keep contributing and let's all remember that we are here for the same thing...

Only 10 more days until the race weekend is here again!!


------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited July 20, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Knestis:
I guess that I presume that an Auberlen can maintain threshold braking at a level higher than the average wanker (say, me). Safe assumption? Further, I'd like to think that my skills in that area are greater than, say, my mother's. ABS is designed to save her butt on the street - a point that should be borne in mind when reading how great it is.

I'm not so sure about this. I was under the impression that different car models came with differing ABS systems and settings. My Sierra pickup acts much differently than my old BMW when the ABS fires. It would be grevious to assume that all ABS systems are the same as technology has improved, nor that they are all aimed at the lowest common denominator, especially since the cars that we race are often more sport oriented.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> Understanding that ABS works by LIMITING braking - shutting it the hell off - is it going to out-perform Auberlen (assuming all of the other hardware is the same)? I have a VERY hard time believing that it will. The question is then whether ABS will help the wanker get unreasonably closer to those with real talent. </font>

Again, I may be incorrect here, but I don't think that ALL ABS systems work in the way you describe. Some use the data from wheel sensors, and other speed sensors, and limit brake force to those wheels with traction issues. The other wheels without tration issues continue to get full pressure.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> If it does, is that a terrible thing? At the end of the day, it might end up being an inhibiting factor if the wankers aren't required to learn how to get the last couple of percent of stopping power out of their cars.</font>

If ABS does add performance gains while simultaneously removing needed talent, it DOES matter at the end of the day. Lets face it, the wanker you describe might love the chance to shove it in deep, two wheels in the dirt while braking at full force to get inside a talented driver who needs all his wheels on good pavement. I would bet that the same car with ABS will stop better on a varied traction situation than a non ABS car. No rain needed...we have lots of corners with room to the inside where you would never think of driving and braking in a non ABS car.

K

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited July 20, 2004).]

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited July 20, 2004).]

[VTECAcuraGSR]

Knestis - I am the one on Honda-Tech that has the Integra GSR and trying to figure out how to proceed. At this point, I have established that I can re-run my own new hardlines, but when I remove the ABS I think I would have to change out my master cylinder in order for it to work properly...

What to do?

[Knestis]

Sorry - I should have been a little more specific.

All ABS systems work by shutting off braking force to one or more wheels. There is NO way that it can achieve its function by INCREASING braking force in any way - only by decreasing it selectively.

I will concede the point about having a wheel or two in the dirt. I used that capacity to avoid getting clobbered a couple of times when lapping cars at the Roebling school. I'm not brave - stupid? - enough to try that kind of tactic as an overtaking move on a car turning similar lap times but that doesn't mean that someone else might not be.

K

[Geo]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
So, again, I'm thick skulled... summarize for me again just how ABS is NOT a competitive advantage. I say it is, in part because it does the following:

1) Makes an average driver better by increasing his/her ability to threshold brake without having to rely on "feel", "skill", or whatever you want to call that which defines a really good driver.

2) Increases car control in wet or non-ideal conditions and makes the car more stable under braking

3) Can be programmed to react differently to different situations

4) Typically stops a car in dry conditions in a shorter distance than a car without it

5) Can be programmed to act as "traction control" even for those cars that were not orginally equiped with such features

It seems everyone is forgetting that ABS will prevent wheel lock-up. So, Ricky Racer will never lock up his brakes and miss the turn.

Safety issues aside, there is zero doubt this is a competitive advantage.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com