passing under double yellow

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
First it is "why do you continue to ignore the GCR?"

Then it is "you sure are good at quoting the GCR"

And it's called grasping at straws

--Daryl DeArman


[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited May 28, 2004).]

Daryl,
Quoting the GCR and understanding what it says are two different things. I'm sorry you are frustrated by that.

[grjones1]

Originally posted by grjones1:
Daryl,
Quoting the GCR and understanding what it says are two different things. I was referring to the statement that "you cannot pass under yellow in any circumstances"(ref. Joeg's remark): that's ignoring the GCR. And suggesting that someone ignores the other circumstances: pulling over and off the racing lines, leaves a great deal of room for interpretation in a given moment. One person's perception of someone pulling over and being off the racing line may be very different from another's perception. That's why they were "grasping at straws." I'm sorry you are frustrated by that.

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 28, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 28, 2004).]

[Knestis]

Okay. New plan.

If you are behind me and I check up suddenly for ANY reason, I am not going to give you the benefit of a hand signal contrary to the GCR.

If you hit me, I will have the paperwork already filled out - minus the car number and color - to file a protest under 9.1.1.a, 9.1.1.b, and 9.1.2.

I'm sorry that it's come to this but I want to be scrupulous where that darned GCR is concerned...

K

[Geezer]

Originally posted by grjones1:
[B] Well Geezer and Orangeade, You certainly are good at quoting the GCR.

The GCR being the rules, and all, just figured that's what you should follow.

Originally posted by grjones1:
[B]First if the guy was "keeping pace," you wouldn't be able to pass him anyway- under yellow, none of us are in race mode and probably wouldn't dice to get by someone who is raising his hand for reasons other than for what he is supposed to raise his hand.

Might not be the case if the preceding driver saw the double yellow and followed the rules to slow down, but you hadn't seen it yet. I can think of several places on several tracks I run in which that could happen. four27 never specified.

Originally posted by grjones1:
[B]And if he is not disabled, why is he raising his hand? (To tell us we are under yellow? He's not supposed to do that and if he does, we have no reson to comprehend his signal- it's not in the book.

Adjusting his mirror? Swatting a cicada? Scratching his nose? pulling a tearoff? Three actions are still required by the GCR to indicate a disabled car. Raising a hand alone doesn't do it.

Originally posted by grjones1:
[B]As far as 'moving over and leaving the racing line, that's all pretty subjective: suppose he's already over and exactly what is the "racing line" on a straight? Methinks you are grasping at straws.

The racing line is pretty subjective? You mean you actually have a hard time figuring out who's on the racing line, and who's trying to get out of the way? Come on, now. Even on the straight, there's a preferred line to set you up for the next turn.

Originally posted by grjones1:
[B]And evidently you have not experienced too many restarts on an all couse yellow: starters have never in my experience waited for the field to "reform" before they dropped the green for a restart- just doesn't happen in other than after a wave-off on the initial start: the starter gets a call from the tower to restart on the next pass of the leader, and the starter upon seeing the race leader drops the green, regardless of whether or not the backmarkers have caught up. That's the real world of SCCA racing.

My GCR disk is at work so I can't check, but I seem to remember the rule on restarts requires the Starter to verify that the field is fully formed. If they don't do that, they're in violation of the GCR and should be protested. Their failure to follow the rules does not excuse another person's failure to do so, even in the "real world of SCCA racing".

Bottom line is that a full course yellow indicates a dangerous situation on track; dangerous enough that all racing has to stop. Your first concern in this event should be the safety of everyone on the track, not trying to gain a possible advantage by twisting the rules to your own gain. If you want to pass under the double yellow, you should be damn sure you're doing it with the permission of the car you're passing. If not, you're a danger to everyone else, and should be penalized. It is always the overtaking car's responsibility to pass in a safe manner, green or double yellow.




[This message has been edited by Geezer (edited May 28, 2004).]

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Knestis:
Okay. New plan.

If you are behind me and I check up suddenly for ANY reason, I am not going to give you the benefit of a hand signal contrary to the GCR.

If you hit me, I will have the paperwork already filled out - minus the car number and color - to file a protest under 9.1.1.a, 9.1.1.b, and 9.1.2.

I'm sorry that it's come to this but I want to be scrupulous where that darned GCR is concerned...

K

Welcome to the fray, K.

I noticed you carefully excluded reference to 9.1.1.c and the fact that the overtaken driver has some responsibilty in the act of passing, or perhaps you were just intent upon making your point.

In my experience (forgive my repeated reference to that), good stewards (especially those with some racing experience) are aware that there are some circumstances where the hitter is not always at fault, and the hittee may have been somewhat overexhuberant in the application of his middle pedal, or other circumstances may need review.

For example when a turn is full at five abreast and the field checks up at a rate that surpasses any human's reaction time, some cars may come into contact. That can be seen as a racing incident (the nature of the sport) and your protest based on the "letter of the law" will fall on deaf ears I hope. Especially if the hitter has downshifted and locked all four wheels in his efforts to refrain from making contact. (He then has done all humanly possible to "avoid contact.") If you in your infinite doctoral wisdom do not realize that situation and you automatically file protest, in my opinion you are simply wasting time and resources and are more culpable than any driver inadvertantly nudging the rear end of one of his competitors.
My great fear here is that our sport is being turned over to some people who believe they are involved in a sport that lacks the possibility of injury to themselves or their cars. I beleive, we can work on the personal injury, but wear and tear on the cars is to be expected, and I guess I'll be happy to leave it when little mamby pambies go running to the stewards like children with the report, "He hit me; he hit me!" The same as I react to stewards who declare, "You passed under yellow, you are guilty'" Indeed there have been instances where if I had not passed under yellow the guy ahead of me would have been eating rubber off the tire walls. Every situation has circumstances that must be reviewed before fault can be honestly attributed. Knee jerk reactions to metal-to-metals and cornerworkers' reports of passing on yellows is really out of place. I think it's much like watching professional football metamorphose to a game of flag football because of fear of injury.

Now don't come rebutting my comments with some BS about my ignoring safe practices or wanting to run banzai out there with no regard for my competitors, that's 180 out.

Your comments are in what you perceive to be my clinging unreasonably to the GCR in the double-yellow discussion. What you are ignoring in fact is that in most cases the extra handwaving is a dangerous practice in more ways than one, and because it flies in the face of GCR tenets, the practice is adding to the confusion, not helping to relieve it. And four27's experience is a pretty good indication of why it is adding to the confusion.
G. Robert

[grjones1]

[quote]Originally posted by Geezer:
[B] Your first concern in this event should be the safety of everyone on the track, not trying to gain a possible advantage by twisting the rules to your own gain.
Why do you assume I am simply "twisting the rules to my advantage" if I believe a guy is giving me a wave by, Indeed I'm trying to give him a clear track by getting by him to do whatever he needs to do.
And as far as watching for his getting off the racing line" let us consider that the front straight at VIR has a kink right beneath the starer's stand where one must apex to continue the straight without running out of race track. A Miata under full course yellow throws up his hand while running directly under the stand full course right. He was indeed on the "racing line" and at half speed when he signaled as I approached. I passed with all indications that he was signaling a wave by. The steward accused me of passing under yellow evidently not concerned with the fact that I had a choice of interpreting the situation as I should or slamming brakes with a possibility of causing the guy behind me to hit both of us. And the Miata was not going off course at the starter's stand and wasn't going to cross the course in order to leave it and putting everyone in jeopardy. The point was: ideally waiting for your three conditions to transpire: wave, move off line, and pull off course before passing would have caused a more dangerous situation than we had by passing.

Sometimes things are afterall happening in parallel and not in series as in your ideal world.
G

[oanglade]

Originally posted by grjones1:
First if the guy was "keeping pace," you wouldn't be able to pass him anyway- under yellow, none of us are in race mode

Keeping pace with the pace car is certainly slow enough to be passed by anyone else. In the case that started this topic, it seems that the driver that waved his hands was able to keep pace, but obviously he was passed by someone else that already understood that the course was under FCY.

Originally posted by grjones1:

and probably wouldn't dice to get by someone who is raising his hand for reasons other than for what he is supposed to raise his hand. And if he is not disabled, why is he raising his hand? (To tell us we are under yellow? He's not supposed to do that and if he does, we have no reson to comprehend his signal- it's not in the book.

Just like it is not on the book that you can pass someone under FCY simply because they raise their hands.

Originally posted by grjones1:

As far as 'moving over and leaving the racing line, that's all pretty subjective: suppose he's already over and exactly what is the "racing line" on a straight? Methinks you are grasping at straws.

Straws? We just quoted what the GCR says, word by word. They are not my straws to grab.
You say "suppose he is already over", well, if he's already over, then he's not on the line so that satisfies that.

Originally posted by grjones1:

And evidently you have not experienced too many restarts on an all couse yellow: starters have never in my experience waited for the field to "reform" before they dropped the green for a restart- just doesn't happen in other than after a wave-off on the initial start: the starter gets a call from the tower to restart on the next pass of the leader, and the starter upon seeing the race leader drops the green, regardless of whether or not the backmarkers have caught up. That's the real world of SCCA racing.

That might be the case, but you don't get a restart until at least everyone has gone by the start line while under full course yellow, so everyone gets a lap under full course yellow, which gives everyone plenty of time to figure out if the car in front of them is disabled and signaling to pass or something else.

Originally posted by grjones1:

RST,
Doesn't matter if he knew there was an all course yellow: If he assumed the guy was signaling "disabled," according to the GCR, he can pass under double-yellow and if he was'nt under yellow, he could pass anyway. What's your point?

That's the thing! The GCR doesn't say that signaling "disabled" is enough to pass under double-yellow, so just because someone signals, you can't legally pass under double yellow!!
Wether the GCR is crazy or not, that's another subject, but that is what it says.
The GCR pretty much says that the car has to look obviously disabled (going really slow, on the edge of the track, off line) AND the driver signaling.


------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[grjones1]

[quote]Originally posted by Geezer:
[B] I seem to remember the rule on restarts requires the Starter to verify that the field is fully formed. If they don't do that, they're in violation of the GCR and should be protested.

Geezer,
If a starter waited for the field to reform at VIR (3.2 miles, 75-car fields) before dropping the green after an all-course yellow, we'd be under yellow for the remainder of every regional (10-lap) race.

Sorry but again your ideal world doesn't exist.
G

[Knestis]

I left out 9.1.1.c because it just didn't seem pertinent. There's been no suggestion of attempted blocking in the case at hand and I wouldn't be doing it in the situation that I anticipate above.

Remembering that this is one of those situations we talked about at VIR - an academic online discussion rather than "real life" - I didn't say anything about locking up brakes going into T1 five-wide on a start.

The situation that I describe is the type I mentioned earlier, where I might breathe the throttle where someone else expects me to be hard on the gas. No brake lights and a sudden lack of acceleration on my part, compounded by a guage or mirror check on the other's make it relatively easy for the him to miss out on what is up and run up my backside.

THAT'S the kind of situation in which I would wave - the kind of situation that it's now being suggested that I had BETTER NOT.

If I get rear ended in that situation, it's not a "racing incident." It's the following driver not avoiding physical contact (9.1.1.a.), failing to give me racing room (9.1.1.b.), and not executing a pass safely (9.1.2) due to his error. I'd rather help him NOT make it.

I've alluded to it but not said it straight out - even if the intent WAS to signal a busted car, I think that it's incumbent on the passing driver to look for more evidence that a car is disabled before passing it, particularly under a double yellow where the few seconds required to assess the situation won't have a drastic cost.

Further - like some others here, I think - I'm left with doubts that the passing driver in this case actually knew that the yellow was out before executing the move.

I don't have a lot to go on so this is a huge supposition but it's not hard to imagine that the sequence of events went more like, (a) guy in front lifts for yellows, ( he waves his hands to alert following guy, © following guy passes leading guy (due to reduced pace) and sees hand waving after committing to the move, (d) passer sees yellows, realizes mistake, and tries to undo his error by letting the other guy back by, (e) race ends, (f) passer-under-yellow takes advantage of passee's good intentions and makes a case after the fact after checking the GCR - probably after the stewards' actions against him - and finally, (g) he posts his question here to bolster both his case and the belief that he's been wronged.

Sound plausible?

Of course, I could be very wrong.

K

[grjones1]

Originally posted by oanglade:
That's the thing! The GCR doesn't say that signaling "disabled" is enough to pass under double-yellow, so just because someone signals, you can't legally pass under double yellow!!
Wether the GCR is crazy or not, that's another subject, but that is what it says.
The GCR pretty much says that the car has to look obviously disabled (going really slow, on the edge of the track, off line) AND the driver signaling.

In fact:
"When the double yellow is displayed, drivers shall make every effort to safely catch the field and form up behind the Pace (Safety) Car or race leader. Drivers of cars that are disabled or cannot keep the pace should not hold up the field. These drivers shall signal that their vehicle is disabled by raising an arm, pulling to the side of the course, and staying well off the racing line. Other drivers may safely pass the signaling vehicle."

The GCR directions here for pulling over and staying off the racing line are for the disabled driver not directions for the passing driver. It does not say "after" or "when, the disabled driver has... ." It simply says, "Other drivers may safely pass the signaling vehicle."

In fact, the purpose here is to let drivers know that in an all course yellow situation, they are expected to close up as quickly and safely as possible and not hold up the people behind them.

One can see this rule was written by racers, and not by administrators.

I'm sorry but you are inferring your own rules and not reading. You are truly "grasping at straws."
G

[oanglade]

Originally posted by grjones1:
In fact:
"When the double yellow is displayed, drivers shall make every effort to safely catch the field and form up behind the Pace (Safety) Car or race leader. Drivers of cars that are disabled or cannot keep the pace should not hold up the field. These drivers shall signal that their vehicle is disabled by raising an arm, pulling to the side of the course, and staying well off the racing line. Other drivers may safely pass the signaling vehicle."

The GCR directions here for pulling over and staying off the racing line are for the disabled driver not directions for the passing driver. It does not say "after" or "when, the disabled driver has... ." It simply says, "Other drivers may safely pass the signaling vehicle."

You just quoted where it says that the driver will signal that his car is disabled by doing a list of 3 things and that the other drivers may pass after getting the signal.

Look how the GCR describes the "signal":
"...signal that their vehicle is disabled by raising an arm, pulling to the side of the course, and staying well off the racing line."

The 3 things are the signal to the other driver.

Originally posted by grjones1:

In fact, the purpose here is to let drivers know that in an all course yellow situation, they are expected to close up as quickly and safely as possible and not hold up the people behind them.

One can see this rule was written by racers, and not by administrators.

I'm sorry but you are inferring your own rules and not reading. You are truly "grasping at straws."
G

"Purpose" and intention of the authors is another subject. If everyone knew and followed the intentions of the rules, there wouldn't be people spending thousands of dollars on showroom stock motors in SSB and SSC, there might not be spherical bearings in IT, etc.



------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[grjones1]

[quote]Originally posted by Knestis:
[b]I left out 9.1.1.c because it just didn't seem pertinent. There's been no suggestion of attempted blocking in the case at hand and I wouldn't be doing it in the situation that I anticipate above.
_____________________________________________
You suggested as I read it that you would protest anyone hitting you in the rear under any circumstances.
_____________________________________
Remembering that this is one of those situations we talked about at VIR - an academic online discussion rather than "real life" - I didn't say anything about locking up brakes going into T1 five-wide on a start.
__________________________________________
I simply was providing an example of when hitting you in the rear end might be forgivable.
__________________________________________
The situation that I describe is the type I mentioned earlier, where I might breathe the throttle where someone else expects me to be hard on the gas. No brake lights and a sudden lack of acceleration on my part, compounded by a guage or mirror check on the other's make it relatively easy for the him to miss out on what is up and run up my backside.
__________________________________________
I'm really confused here K. In that event (not under yellow), I would simply dart out and pass you, and I wouldn't be checking my mirror or gauges if I'm running that close behind, I think I would be waiting for the right time to pass, and if you lifted I would pass.
___________________________________________
THAT'S the kind of situation in which I would wave - the kind of situation that it's now being suggested that I had BETTER NOT.
_____________________________________________
Again your wave really wouldn't influence me one way or the other except as an opportunity to pass.
____________________________________________
If I get rear ended in that situation, it's not a "racing incident." It's the following driver not avoiding physical contact (9.1.1.a.), failing to give me racing room (9.1.1.b.), and not executing a pass safely (9.1.2) due to his error. I'd rather help him NOT make it.
___________________________________________
If I hit you in that situation, it's my fault and I deserve to be penalized, but waving would not in any case help- car control is what helps and maybe your not doing anything like lifting in the wrong place.
__________________________________________
I've alluded to it but not said it straight out - even if the intent WAS to signal a busted car, I think that it's incumbent on the passing driver to look for more evidence that a car is disabled before passing it, particularly under a double yellow where the few seconds required to assess the situation won't have a drastic cost.

Further - like some others here, I think - I'm left with doubts that the passing driver in this case actually knew that the yellow was out before executing the move.

I don't have a lot to go on so this is a huge supposition but it's not hard to imagine that the sequence of events went more like, (a) guy in front lifts for yellows, ( he waves his hands to alert following guy, © following guy passes leading guy (due to reduced pace) and sees hand waving after committing to the move, (d) passer sees yellows, realizes mistake, and tries to undo his error by letting the other guy back by, (e) race ends, (f) passer-under-yellow takes advantage of passee's good intentions and makes a case after the fact after checking the GCR - probably after the stewards' actions against him - and finally, (g) he posts his question here to bolster both his case and the belief that he's been wronged.

Sound plausible?

Of course, I could be very wrong.
___________________________________________
I don't pretend to be omniscient, but I think he honestly believed he was getting a wave by, and he had a right to.
G


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 30, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

I've stayed out of this up to now, but I have to make one minor point...

Mr. Jones, please take the time to read and understand how to quote and utilize bold and italic types while injecting your comments on others quoted posts...

(To do so, please click on the "UBB Code is on" phrase in red at the left while typing a response. The most common codes used here are: quotes, bolds, and italics)


This is the most dang confusing thread I've read in a while, and that includes the 511 post ITA thread!

thanks

Oh yeah...all three items (waving, reduced speed and off the line) constitute the 'signal'. Plain english.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[grjones1]

Originally posted by oanglade:
Believe it or not I'll concede the three points of signaling (only because I'm an English major and grammatically your inference is correct, AND i WAS WRONG. However, Given examples I've already provided, one does not always have the opportunity to wait for those three conditions, nor does the disabled driver always have the opportunity to accomplish them while being overtaken (ref. the series parallel comment). And who is to say all four conditions are not being met at the same time: the disabled driver is waving, pulling over to stop, and the passer is passing. Nor does the GCR actually say all three of the passee's directions have to be met only that the passer may pass the "signaling" driver and that's a present participle suggesting that the passee may be in the act of "signaling". Things happen pretty fast out there and sometimes all at the same time. Do you disagee?

G. Robert

[/B]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 28, 2004).]

[grjones1]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
[B]I've stayed out of this up to now, but I have to make one minor point...

Mr. Jones, please take the time to read and understand how to quote and utilize bold and italic types while injecting your comments on others quoted posts...

(To do so, please click on the "UBB Code is on" phrase in red at the left while typing a response. The most common codes used here are: quotes, bolds, and italics)


This is the most dang confusing thread I've read in a while, and that includes the 511 post ITA thread!

thanks

Oh yeah...all three items (waving, reduced speed and off the line) constitute the 'signal'. Plain english.

Thanks Jake, I stand corrected on all counts.
G[b/]
but obviously I still don't know how to use that UBB code.

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 28, 2004).]

[Geezer]

Originally posted by grjones1:
And as far as watching for his getting off the racing line" let us consider that the front straight at VIR has a kink right beneath the starer's stand where one must apex to continue the straight without running out of race track. A Miata under full course yellow throws up his hand while running directly under the stand full course right. He was indeed on the "racing line" and at half speed when he signaled as I approached. I passed with all indications that he was signaling a wave by. The steward accused me of passing under yellow evidently not concerned with the fact that I had a choice of interpreting the situation as I should or slamming brakes with a possibility of causing the guy behind me to hit both of us. [/b]

I'm familiar with the front straight at VIR. you can see the starters stand, where there would have been a double yellow, from about the time you exit Hog Pen. Yet you didn't have time on that long straight before the kink to see the flag and slow down as required under double yellow. You were closing on a car that had correctly slowed down, and was maintaining the racing line, with a speed differential so great that you would have had to "slam on brakes" to avoid passing it, and then did pass it. I can see how the Steward might have a problem with that. You had the rest of the front straight to pass the Miata, if he was really disabled and gave a clear indication by signaling, which the GCR still defines as: raising a hand, getting well off the line, and pulling to the side of the course. You'd still have had 3 miles to close up with the field.

Originally posted by grjones1:
If a starter waited for the field to reform at VIR (3.2 miles, 75-car fields) before dropping the green after an all-course yellow, we'd be under yellow for the remainder of every regional (10-lap) race.

Sorry but again your ideal world doesn't exist.

No, only the rules exist, and they don't change for your convenience. If you're concerned about the field not forming up right, raise the issue at the driver's meeting. Make sure the pace or lead car knows to slow enough to let the field form. They have at least 3.27 miles to do it. Make sure the starter knows his job. Make sure the other drivers know to close up. And if they screw up and you lose a few seconds, that's tough. Complain about it after the race. It doesn't give you any right to violate the rules. If you do so you should be penalized.


[This message has been edited by Geezer (edited May 29, 2004).]

[grjones1]

I didn't violate any rules, and if you are looking at the starter's stand while you are exiting Hog Pen, your exit speed must not be very distracting (read: you are very slow). As a matter of fact I was already aware there was a double yellow and I was trying to "keep the pace." No, my speed was correct for conditions and the Miata was half my speed (too slow for conditions) at the edge of the track and waving his hand (I believe that meets all criteria for "I am disabled." But the steward had the same attitude as yours: blindly clinging to "you passed on yellow, you are guilty."
And if the Miata is at half my speed which was a normal yellow-flag controlled rate and I remain behind him, just how am I supposed to catch up to "reform" for the restart 3 miles behind the lead pack? Let's try to be a little aware of all that is goin on.

And my job as a driver is not to tell the steward how to run a race. He's supposed to know how to run a race or he doesn't have any business being a steward.

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 29, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 29, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 29, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 29, 2004).]

[Geezer]

Originally posted by grjones1:
I didn't violate any rules, and if you are looking at the starter's stand while you are exiting Hog Pen, your exit speed must not be very distracting (read: you are very slow).

When I get on the straight, I look down the track, and there's the starter's stand. What a concept.

Originally posted by grjones1:
As a matter of fact I was already aware there was a double yellow and I was trying to "keep the pace." No, my speed was correct for conditions and the Miata was half my speed (too slow for conditions) at the edge of the track and waving his hand (I believe that meets all criteria for "I am disabled."

Nope. Has to be well off the racing line as well. If you'd waited 30 yards past the kink you'd have known if he was really getting out of the way. BTW, was the Miata really disabled?

Originally posted by grjones1:
But the steward had the same attitude as yours: blindly clinging to "you passed on yellow, you are guilty."

Maybe because the Steward is responsible for the conduct and safety of everyone on track, not just there to make sure you're not slowed down as you try to catch up with the field.

Originally posted by grjones1:
And if the Miata is at half my speed which was a normal yellow-flag controlled rate and I remain behind him, just how am I supposed to catch up to "reform" for the restart 3 miles behind the lead pack? Let's try to be a little aware of all that is goin on.

Let's be aware that if he was disabled and did the three things that signal that fact, you could have waited a second or two and passed him in the straight before turn 1. If you couldn't catch a field under double yellow in the remaining three miles, I'm afraid it's you who are very slow. If he was just going slower than you liked, and held you up, that's tough. It is no excuse for you to pass him.

Originally posted by grjones1:
And my job as a driver is not to tell the steward how to run a race. He's supposed to know how to run a race or he doesn't have any business being a steward.

Part of your job as a driver is to ask questions if you think you and the organizers or other drivers have differences in their understanding of the rules at the event. Expecting that your interpretation and that of the Steward will always be the same is risky, and if they don't match, he wins.

[This message has been edited by Geezer (edited May 29, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Geezer (edited May 29, 2004).]

[grjones1]

Geezer,
I've already said I was aware the double yellow was out (by the way I forgot to mention we were in the middle of a deluge.)

And if you are looking up coming out of hogpen to look at the starter stand and not down to check your placement on the track, its conditions and traffic, I'm afraid your "concept" is flawed.

But I am not required to wait for him to pull over, only to see that he is pulling over, and to pass him safely. That's exactly what I did.

As far as I know he was disabled: he had pulled to the edge of the course, had slowed drastically, and his hand was in the air waving; all according to the GCR he was disabled and I could legally pass.

If he were not disabled, he in fact is contrary to the GCR: he's not supposed to be waving and he is supposed to "keep pace." Not slow to a crawl and put those behind him in jeopardy of 1) banging into his rear end and 2) misreading his signal. You see all parties have responsibilities for safety, not just the guy who passes when he for all that occurred had a right to pass, and did the "safe" thing.

And if you have raced at VIR, you know damn good and well the ITC cars in a C, B,A and S race after 5 laps are not going to catch the lead group under a full yellow before the stater restarts the race, no matter how many questions I ask at the drivers' meeting and especially when the guy in front of you doesn't know or care that he is supposed to close up. (Many beleive they are supposed to go into tour mode and enjoy the rest.) And I believe I have the right to expect the stewards of a race to be totally familiar with the GCR without my reminding them (and probably insulting them by asking)Be real!
And I really resent the fact that you and the steward assumed I passed simply because I was being held up. I passed because I had the legal right to pass and I accomplished it in a safe manner (and by the way so did the guy behind me).

No matter how you and the steward twist it, I did not deserve a reprimand, and probably neither did four27.


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 30, 2004).]

[Geezer]

Originally posted by grjones1:
Geezer,
I've already said I was aware the double yellow was out (by the way I forgot to mention we were in the middle of a deluge.)

And if you are looking up coming out of hogpen to look at the starter stand and not down to check your placement on the track, its conditions and traffic, I'm afraid your "concept" is flawed.

But I am not required to wait for him to pull over, only to see that he is pulling over, and to pass him safely. That's exactly what I did.

As far as I know he was disabled: he had pulled to the edge of the course, had slowed drastically, and his hand was in the air waving; all according to the GCR he was disabled and I could legally pass.

If he were not disabled, he in fact is contrary to the GCR: he's not supposed to be waving and he is supposed to "keep pace." Not slow to a crawl and put those behind him in jeopardy of 1) banging into his rear end and 2) misreading his signal. You see all parties have responsibilities for safety, not just the guy who passes when he for all that occurred had a right to pass, and did the "safe" thing.

And if you have raced at VIR, you know damn good and well the ITC cars in a C, B,A and S race after 5 laps are not going to catch the lead group under a full yellow before the stater restarts the race, no matter how many questions I ask at the drivers' meeting and especially when the guy in front of you doesn't know or care that he is supposed to close up. (Many beleive they are supposed to go into tour mode and enjoy the rest.) And I believe I have the right to expect the stewards of a race to be totally familiar with the GCR without my reminding them (and probably insulting them by asking)Be real!
And I really resent the fact that you and the steward assumed I passed simply because I was being held up. I passed because I had the legal right to pass and I accomplished it in a safe manner (and by the way so did the guy behind me).

No matter how you and the steward twist it, I did not deserve a reprimand, and probably neither did four27.


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 30, 2004).]

I guess we agree to disagree then. And when you rearend some guy who was scratching his nose under double yellow and wonder why you got a penalty or suspension, we'll probably still disagree. It's just as well I race with NASA, and don't have to worry about it being me you tag if I get an itchy chin, since the NASA CCR mandate's no passing under any yellow.