Who's job is it anyway?

[Knestis]

Originally posted by planet6racing:
Kirk: Did your drivers school incorporate a test of the GCR? ...

Yup - open-book, share answers with the guy/gal next to you, and go back and change the ones you got wrong when they read the answers to the entire group. At least two of the answers initially given during scoring were wrong and had to be looked up in a handy GCR to be corrected. All of the questions examined procedural aspects of the GCR, as I recall.

For the record, my titties are completely untwaddled but my tinkler IS in a terrific tangle...

K

K

[apr67]

The people in tech are human, and often what they think is legal or il-legal is just as far off as a racers. Don't forget, most of us just have to know one kind of car, and we do a generally lousy job. They would have to know every class and every car in the class. Hell just ITA would make my head swim.

Having seen a lot of race cars in my days, I have seen plenty of very il-legal and unsafe cars get issued logbooks. And I have had my fair share of tech inspectors who want me to change something on my car that is either not part of our rules, or patently il-legal because they want to run their power trip.

Anyway, tech should try and help people to be legal. But often they are too busy, don't know enough and can not do that. Therefore, if you see an illegal car and it bugs you, tell the driver. Nicely. You may just find out that:
#1. It was a mistake
#2. They feel it is a gray area, so protest me
#3. You get punched in the mouth.

(#1 and #2 happen a lot, #3 about once in a blue moon).

[GKR_17]

Here's some more fuel for the fire:

This happened at the ARRC, not a school.

One of the competitors asked a tech official where he could bolt his ballast, and was told incorrectly. This car was found noncompliant at impound, but then not penalized because of the incorrect interpretation by the tech guy. Granted the ballast was only off by about a foot, BUT don't forget that the top two ITS cars from the previous year were tossed for the exact same offense.

[gsbaker]

Here is something for the school-vs-race perspective:

I did my first Driver's School in a rented Spec Racer Ford supplied by one of the local Customer Service Reps for SCCA Enterprises. I was one of a half-dozen students who rented from this CSR and most of them were just interested in trying racing.

One guy had a lot of experience driving/"racing" with a Ferrari club, but wanted to try some more wheel-to-wheel action. He was good, and at the end of the school he was "signed off". When the head honcho (is there a SOM at a school?) handed back his novice permit the guy said, "Thanks. By the way, what's this GCR thing I keep hearing about?"

Now if it's a race, we all gotta play by the rules and the gloves can come off.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[racer-025]

Originally posted by biovic:
Speaking about safety issues, wouldn't putting sheet metal in place of the glass lights be more safe than putting in glass? I can see that the current rules don't allow it, but I would be perfectly fine with changing the rules to not only allow but encourage this.

If any of you folks have seen pics of my IT race cars, we have metal in place of the headlights. Here in Canada, we run under Atlantic Region Motorsports, a division of ASN Canada. Our IT rules are taken from the SCCA IT GCR's, but ARMS has the right to dictate any "local rules" they deem logical. This headlight rule was one of only a few. As the cost of headlight assemblies keeps going up (especially in newer cars) it doesn't make any sense to have them in a race car (except night races of course).

That said, when we go racing south of the border, we indeed put them back in. Also, IMHO, glass in the doors of race cars makes no sense to me whats-so-ever. One minor hit in the door, and the glass is broken. It must be a weight issue...

[JohnRW]

Originally posted by planet6racing:

If a car comes into the DS (we'll just abbreviate that now) and into the tech shed, it needs to have a logbook, correct? That log book identifies the class that the car is built for, correct? If it doesn't meet the rules for that class, is it not protestable?

Let me remind everyone that even the GCR specifically allows leeway at Driver's Schools for cars that aren't prepped to the current GCR.

Example: Showroom Stock cars that are past their 'sell-by date' may compete, as long as the their safety equipment is up to the current standard.

The GCR recognizes that Driver's Schools need a little room to wiggle, and codified it. I know that I can walk down any Reg'l or Nat'l grid and find little illegalities on 10-25% of the cars...not big stuff...but little stuff that may not be intentional or might even be open to 'interpretation'. If experienced racers can't always agree on tech & car prep issues (that's why we have a protest procedure, rather than just a single Tech guy who says "YES" or "NO") we can't hold students to a higher standard.

Send school students home if car prep isn't perfect ? What a load of sanctimonious hooey. Please occupy another universe.

[planet6racing]

Sorry, not going to another universe. You all are stuck with me. Although, in another universe, I probably have another opinion or decided not to post about this. Heck, if I went there I could argue with myself!

I'm not saying send them home if the car isn't perfect. I'm saying send them packing if they clearly haven't read the GCR, of which you can judge simply by looking at things like headlights, etc. When you remove stuff that is pretty clearly spelled out in the GCR not to remove, it's a pretty safe bet that that person has not read the GCR.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[This message has been edited by planet6racing (edited July 22, 2004).]

[Greg Krom]

>> I'm saying send them packing if they clearly haven't read the GCR, of which you can judge simply by looking at things like headlights, etc. When you remove stuff that is pretty clearly spelled out in the GCR not to remove, it's a pretty safe bet that that person has not read the GCR. <<

Or it indicates that the car is partially put back together, or is a rental, or was recently purchased "ready to race"... There are numerous legitimate reasons for a driver to show up at a school with no headlights mounted, many of which do not indicate any ignorance of the GCR by the driver.

I see absolutely no purpose in failing someone from a drivers school for an "infraction" such as headlight removal. Warn the student that that would be unacceptable at a race, note it in the logbook, thats fine. To kick them out of the school is completely harsh and doesn't serve ANY purpose.

[planet6racing]

Originally posted by Greg Krom:

Or it indicates that the car is partially put back together, or is a rental, or was recently purchased "ready to race"... There are numerous legitimate reasons for a driver to show up at a school with no headlights mounted, many of which do not indicate any ignorance of the GCR by the driver.

Geez, I'm argumentative today! I'm not trying to ruffle feathers and am willing to play nice to a point to people in schools, but...

If you buy a "race ready" car without knowing the GCR, and you purchased it the day before you go to your school and haven't had time to go through the car or the GCR before the school, are you really taking this seriously? Sure, we're all out there to have fun, but there can be some very serious consequences. The GCR outlines very important procedures for on track, and these are "reinforced" in the DS. It should not be the first time the student hears/reads this.

I guess my point of all this is, RTFGCR before you get to school. If you can't make your car legal for the DS but it is safe, come on in. But, when I come up to you to talk about your missing headlights, tell me that you already know about it because you read the GCR.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[apr67]

Bill,

The GCR is huge, vuage, and leaves a lot of room for interpration.

If a student doesn't know the flags or rules of the road from the GCR, flunk them. Otherwise they have a life time to learn the finer points about reading the confusing GCR.

[planet6racing]

Yep, in certain areas, the GCR is vague. I'll agree with that. Heck, without this forum, I'd still be confused about some parts (actually, I still am confused about some parts, but so are the rest of us!).

OK, I'll ammend my above statement. All students must take and pass the GCR test first before continuing in the school. 30 questions, 20 minutes. I'll even make it open book. If you've read the GCR at least once, you should be able to pass it. If you don't pass, you don't move on.

So, I guess what this has evolved to is my personal quest to make everyone read the GCR (as they are supposed to) before they get a license. Sure, reading the GCR and answering questions about it doesn't imply anything about the person's on track abilities and the likelihood that they will or will not make a mistake on track, but I'm not so certain we want to make the DS such an easy thing to get through.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[JohnRW]

More waffle-ing here than at an IHOP on Saturday morning.

Most SCCA schools that I am familiar with DO have a required GCR written test. I have 'authored' several of those tests myself in the last decade, as Chief Weenie here and there.

Reading isn't comprehension. Many elements of the GCR are open to interpretation, hence the endless debates on this (and many other...) boards. It's OK for a question to be - "When in sight of a yellow flag, is a pass made before that flag station a 'legal' pass' ?". It's not OK for a question to be - "Are Heim joints allowed in the steering linkage of a Production class car ?" The first question has an obvious answer, while we can't get Stewards and the Comp. Board to agree on an answer to the second question.

[planet6racing]

John:

I agree. The GCR test should be about the GCR sections, not the categories. However, as has been mentioned above, some students have shown up with the "So, where do I get one of those GCR things you all keep talking about?"

(on edit) My expectation is that, if the person has read the GCR sections, he/she would have moved onto the classification section as well. I know, it's a stretch, but I'll at least cut him/her a little slack.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[This message has been edited by planet6racing (edited July 22, 2004).]