When is a Start Not a Start?

[Geo]

Originally posted by dickita15:
geo
where does it say in the gcr that you must see a green flag on a restart in order to resume racing.

OK, it is not specifically mentioned under restarts, however, the restart portion only deals with "administrative" issues of how cars will be lined up, etc.

I would review GCR 7.5.6 - 7.5.12 regarding starts. The race begins with the drop of the green flag. If you start racing on a restart before the drop of the green flag and you are protested I'll bet you $100 the protest will be well founded.

I believe that the SCCA did not reprint the procedure for starts once again under restarts because the starting procedure has already been described and therefore the only issues to address are the "administrative" ones I mentioned.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[RKramden]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
PS: IMO the sups should say that when a corner station is not displaing a flag then the course is considered green. Flag stations can be identified on the first lap of qualifying and practice sesions by a firled pass flag and on the pace lap of a race by a double yellow flag.

No, flag stations are identified on the first lap of the first session ONLY by a single white flag. There is no such thing as a "Firled pass flag." If someone is doing that, then they are not following the GCR.

[RSTPerformance]

Its just an idea, so that their are no excuses for not knowing where a station is, if you were to miss a (the first) session.

Raymond

[bldn10]

You guys are doing a good job of arguing what 99% of the time is a moot point, and that is why it is not and does not need to be addressed in the rules. (See my previous post.) It is correct to assume that the course is green when previously displayed double yellows are dropped because that is not supposed to happen until the green is thrown by the Starter. In this case it appears that Race Control told the corners that the course was green (& implicitly that they drop the yellows) despite the fact that the Starter had NOT thrown the green flag. That was the mistake. The drivers at the front who could see the Starter were correct in interpreting a wave off and the ones who could only see the corner stations were correct to interpret the dropped yellows as a start. And that's all I have to say about that. :-)

[Geo]

Originally posted by bldn10:
It is correct to assume that the course is green when previously displayed double yellows are dropped because that is not supposed to happen until the green is thrown by the Starter.

That is a good assumption, but it's still an assumption, and there in lay the danger, both figuratively and physically. I think most people would make this assumption.

Regardless, the race does not officially start until the green flag is waved. Dropping of the double yellows is not an official start.

One would do well to understand this distinction because those passing on an aborted start could very well be subject to sanction.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Catch22]

Its pretty simple really. At the start of a race the GCR says "green means go." Nowhere does it say "no yellow means go."

This really isn't any different than someone telling you that you can (for example) remove your heater core for IT. Even if that person is an official or a tech inspector, thats not what the rulebook says, so you can't do it.

Green = Go.
If you are staring in the back of the pack (and I'm ITC, so I usually am) and can't see the flag stand, you can CHOOSE to go when the yellows drop or when everyone else around you goes. And while this is what many of us do, it is plainly a violation of the rules.

[Geezer]

It's the track's fault.

7.5.8

Upon determining that the approaching field is at a constant slow speed, well bunched and in line, and close enough that all drivers can see the flag, the Starter shall suddenly and continuously wave the green flag, until all cars have passed the start line...

So if the track configuration doesn't allow all the drivers to see the Starter, there should never be a start at all. Maybe they need a taller starters stand, or a bigger green flag (he says, tongue firmly in cheek).

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1988 CRX Si
ECHC H4 #38

[This message has been edited by Geezer (edited April 23, 2004).]

[JohnRW]

[quote]Originally posted by Geezer:
[b]It's the track's fault.

7.5.8

Upon determining that the approaching field is at a constant slow speed, well bunched and in line, and close enough that all drivers can see the flag, the Starter shall suddenly and continuously wave the green flag, until all cars have passed the start line...

Right on, Geezer. Nail head, meet Mr. Hammer.

[ITSRX7]

That section you quote is from the START of the race - not RESTART. On the double-file start, NER uses a different config to get the START underway - one so that the entire field CAN see the S/F station.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[oanglade]

Like I said above:

9.2.1 Operation and Control
"... Drivers shall maintain the pace established by the safety car and shall not improve their positions or begin racing until the green flag has been displayed and the race restarted."

This is the section that applies to restarts.

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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[moto62]

Originally posted by oanglade:
Like I said above:

9.2.1 Operation and Control
"... Drivers shall maintain the pace established by the safety car and shall not improve their positions or begin racing until the green flag has been displayed and the race restarted."

This is the section that applies to restarts.

Well there's your answer. So the start was not a start after all. Andy, you did the right thing by not taking off, and keeping the field at pace car speed.
Well done Ony. Seems like that section of the GCR was quite elusive from the rest of us.
Ray

[Dreamer]

I have been following this thread and find all your comments to be quite interesting. You have all made good points that deserve to be addressed in your rules. Why don't you contact your Road Racing Board and have them address the situation? The NE Road Racing Board could address it in the supps until the National Board makes a ruling. This would clear it up for all of you. As for me, I am a college student, looking for info to write a thesis on the mindset of the auto racer for a psych class. I may ask questions online as I have observed the Improved Touring group to be the most interesting group of racers in SCCA and the most impressive. Thank you.

[bldn10]

Originally posted by bldn10:
"It is correct to assume that the course is green when previously displayed double yellows are dropped because that is not supposed to happen until the green is thrown by the Starter."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
George: "That is a good assumption, but it's still an assumption, and there in lay the danger, both figuratively and physically. I think most people would make this assumption. Regardless, the race does not officially start until the green flag is waved. Dropping of the double yellows is not an official start. One would do well to understand this distinction because those passing on an aborted start could very well be subject to sanction."

There are assumptions and there are assumptions. This one is correct because drivers have to be able to rely on corner flag conditions. You cannot have drivers second-guessing flag conditions - they are to obey them even if the displayed flag is wrong. The only way drivers out of view of the starter know when a race has begun or restarted is by watching visible corner stations. When a double yellow is dropped the course is "green" at that station. In this case it appears that Race Control thought the green had been thrown at start-finish and told the corners to go green. That's why they kept gesturing to get going - until Race Control realized what had happened and stopped it. This interpretation is not in the Rules but it is inherent in them.

I described the situation to a Midwest Div. steward, stated my conclusions, and he agreed 100%. Not only would he not sanction the drivers in the back, he thinks they would be due an apology for putting them in a potentially dangerous situation.

[lateapex911]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> originally posted by BLDN10: I described the situation to a Midwest Div. steward, stated my conclusions, and he agreed 100%. Not only would he not sanction the drivers in the back, he thinks they would be due an apology for putting them in a potentially dangerous situation. </font>

Well, NER recognizes that an operational communications misunderstanding was made, and certainly no drivers are being sanctioned or reprimanded, except for being (wrongly) called a jacka$$ here.

Unfortunately, this is another reminder of the advantages that go to the "haves" and the disadvantages the "have-nots" are dealing with. I have had the unfortunate occasion to be at the back of the pack for a start, and without a radio, it is often a guessing game at best.

That said, it aint green until its green, and you take your chances otherwise....

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[JLawton]

Let me tell you, you can quote the GCR all you want, but unless you were there, in the back of the pack, you have NO idea of the confusion that was running through all our heads. Beleive me, there was no time to think about what the GCR said............

I took the conservative approach and did not take off. However, up until the moment they re-gridded me up front more, I thought I had made the wrong decision!!

This was a VERY freak event and hopefully won't happen again!!

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Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi

[oanglade]

I think pretty much everyone would agree with you on that.

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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[Geo]

Originally posted by JLawton:
Let me tell you, you can quote the GCR all you want, but unless you were there, in the back of the pack, you have NO idea of the confusion that was running through all our heads. Beleive me, there was no time to think about what the GCR said............

Oh, agreed! I think that is why we are Monday morning quarterbacking this. It's like reviewing game films. There's something to be learned here for one thing.

But Jake is right, you take your chances because ultimately the GCR is the guide. I think it was reasonable not to sanction drivers, but I could also see where it would be reasonable to do so as well. Ya takes yer chances.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[gsbaker]

I think we should all chip in and buy corner workers green flags.

Gregg

[CaptainWho]

We have green flags, at least at Road Atlanta. But we leave them in the "flag bag" when we're working SCCA events because the rules only allow the green to be used at start/finish. When we're working events under FIA rules (like HSR events) we use the green flag as expected.

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Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing

[planet6racing]

Well, considering this is an anomaly (or is it anomoly?), I don't think we need the greens at the corners. The GCR does do a good job of describing the flag rules and covers most situations. This one was a complete fluke (not the result of any person or persons, it just happened to work out wrong) and that's why it happened.

I don't see any need to go changing anything at this point. It seems this was posted merely as something to think about and that's what's happened.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com