When is a Start Not a Start?

[whenry]

Famous line from movies(I cant do the accent in type): what we have here is failure to communicate. I am a Steward and have worked control on many instances. It is my favorite part of the job. I also dont like to point fingers and want to be productive here.
The drivers did nothing wrong and it appears that Control thought that the green was displayed so that the call to all corners to drop flags was relayed(there are many tracks where due to angles, etc, Control cannot see all the actions of the starter). Since black flags were eventually displayed, I must also assume that something BIG was going on that justified stopping the race. Or maybe Control just wanted to correct the error. Two wrongs dont make a right, IMO.
I'm sure that this one will make the stewards seminar.

[Knestis]

This is an interesting conversation in the abstract because it points out some of the things we do, that we don't necessarily KNOW we do. It also underlines the importance of consistency and predictability in a setting where we don't have the luxury - any of us - of making a well-considered, reflective decision.

I made a very wrong move at the Roebling driver school - and 'fessed up to the stewards without being asked, I might add - when I passed the pace car that was sent out mid-practice. The starter had a waving white out (no yellow) and pace was going slowly, driver's right, at the edge of the track just beyond S/F - lights on.

It should be simple enough that "you don't pass pace when it's lit up" but the combination of the flag (not correct), its low speed, and the contrived nature of schools left me thinking about it and uncertain just long enough to drive past it.

There is value in doing a post mortem on this kind of thing but it isn't to apportion blame.

K

[RSTPerformance]

Like I said in the Northeast post, one thing that everyone needs to take away from this incident is how important we depend on our VOLUNTEER corner workers. Like everything else our faults usually show more than our positives, but I would like everyone to take a minute to realize how important they are to providing us a safe place to race.

Thank you;

Raymond

[bhudson]

K - you shouldn't have 'fessed up. You didn't do anything wrong.

There is no provision in the GCR for a "waving" white flag, only a steady white flag. The white flag is to signal a slow moving car or emergency vehicle. You are allowed to pass slow moving cars and emergency vehicles.

The white flag is not the correct flag for the pace car. If the pace car was being dispatched, the flags displayed should have been double yellow.

But look on the bright side. It's not the first time that a Roebling Road Driver School has displayed flags in a manner that is contrary to the GCR or established procedure.

Unfortunately, it probably won't be the last.

Bob Hudson
Atlanta Region
Asst Flag Chief

[CaptainWho]

I'm not sure which run group Kirk was in, but we were in group 3. At one point, the black flag station was displaying a double yellow with the "ALL" placard. That confused me for a second. :-)

[SpeedyDave]

Originally posted by Geo:
Those are your words, not those written in the GCR. If no flags truly = go, then that is what would be written in the GCR. The control of the start of the race still lay with the starter's stand.

George,
I dunno about other areas but when I took driver's school at two seperate regions a couple years ago, in BOTH cases there was a question on the test on flags asking "what does it mean if a station is not displaying any flags." the "correct" answer was "the course is green in that location".

Do we really need to spell out in the GCR what "no flag" means? Come on, we may be like children but there's a point...we define explicitly in the GCR what flags do mean and how they are to be displayed, and by doing so we also define what NO flag means. We even have an exception - where no flag is displayed at the starter station and the race is -not- started the starter will shake his/her head to indicate no start.

-David

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by SpeedyDave:
George,
I dunno about other areas but when I took driver's school at two seperate regions a couple years ago, in BOTH cases there was a question on the test on flags asking "what does it mean if a station is not displaying any flags." the "correct" answer was "the course is green in that location".

Do we really need to spell out in the GCR what "no flag" means? Come on, we may be like children but there's a point...we define explicitly in the GCR what flags do mean and how they are to be displayed, and by doing so we also define what NO flag means. We even have an exception - where no flag is displayed at the starter station and the race is -not- started the starter will shake his/her head to indicate no start.

-David

And this is why we are discussing this. I think we can all agree that if there is no flag the course is green in that area - ONLY AFTER the green flag has been thrown to start the race.

What we had was a drop of the double yellows for the back of the pack, no green flag and no waive-off.

How's that for a situation?

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
What we had was a drop of the double yellows for the back of the pack, no green flag and no waive-off.

How's that for a situation?

Good point. For safety's sake, there should always be a flag. No flag equates to, "How the hell do we know?"

It's not that difficult to put out a green.

Gregg

[RKramden]

Pythagorean theorem : 24 Words
The Lord's Prayer : 66 Words
Archimedes' Principle : 67 Words
The 10 Commandments : 179 Words
The Gettysburg Address : 286 Words
The Declaration of Independence : 1,300 Words
The U. S. Government regulations on the sale of cabbage : 26,911 Words
The GCR on what to do under the various conditions of displaying flags or no flags: 72,572 Words

:=)

[gran racing]

Are there circumstances when during a double yellow the race would be resumed at a flag station other than the S/F line? (Thinking about some of the longer tracks)

I'm still unclear about the no green flag debate. I can justify both ways of thinking...

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[gran racing]

I know I'm going a bit off topic, but it does relate directly to starts / restarts and my GCR is on lend...

In an instance where you are beside someone who qualified one place before you; they start to fall back (not mechanical issue, just???), are you supposed to keep up with the person in front of you? Or are you really supposed to stay next to the person that out qualified you? I am pretty sure it is the first response.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[RSTPerformance]

Dave-

good question... I have always stayed up with the person infront of me, hoping the other person would not stay up and leave me a hole as hopefully the person infront of them is faster than the person infront of me... Either way it leaves me (the car staying up) with more options.

Raymond

[Geo]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
And this is why we are discussing this. I think we can all agree that if there is no flag the course is green in that area - ONLY AFTER the green flag has been thrown to start the race.

Thank you Andy. Exactly my point.

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
What we had was a drop of the double yellows for the back of the pack, no green flag and no waive-off.

How's that for a situation?

That'll sure make for some stress.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[JLawton]

I'm going to repeat myself from the NER section. I agree with Raymond on this. Overall, I think the workers did a great job fixing the error. Everyone makes mistakes. In fact, some drivers make many during a race!! Let's not continue to bash a volunteer. Sh** happens............

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Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi

[Trish]

My apologies to everyone. I was not trying to spread libel or lies. I was frustrated at the workers in turn 3 and only passed on what they were saying. They were very negative about the worker situation in general and seemed to convey to all the spectators that there was disharmony. BTW, I think the workers in turn 10 were so quick to respond, most impressive. It just seems that the most important part of the "team" that allows you to race has to start working together and communicating with one another more. Like Jeff said, thank goodness no more serious incidents happened in that race. BTW, I think the carmoraridy (sp) you all have here is wonderful and true to the spirit of the IT groups. It's wonderful to see you all so supportive of each other.
Again, my sincere apologies.

[RKramden]

Originally posted by gran racing:
Are there circumstances when during a double yellow the race would be resumed at a flag station other than the S/F line? (Thinking about some of the longer tracks)

I'm still unclear about the no green flag debate. I can justify both ways of thinking...

Practice and Qualifying, yes.

Race, no.

[RSTPerformance]

You ass u me Yellow, just don't get mad when I pass you

Raymond

[dpc]

That poor green flag(or lack of) is starting to look like a dead horse. let it go. dave

[gran racing]

O.k., I agree that the specific NHIS instance should be let go. BUT I too want to learn what should be done in a similar circumstance. I know that this is not the first time nor the last time that a similar situation will happen. Forget blame - but what should the pack do next time no green flag is shown, no waive off, no yellow at flag one. At this point, I'd say screw it and just go.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[gran racing]

O.k., I agree that the specific NHIS instance should be let go. BUT I too want to learn what should be done in a similar circumstance. I know that this is not the first time nor the last time that a similar situation will happen. Forget blame - but what should the pack do next time no green flag is shown, no waive off, no yellow at flag one. At this point, I'd say screw it and just go.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude