Andy, you may not have made up your mind but it is clear to me that your not intersted in fixing the loophole that is allowing the stuff it in a box deal that's happening now. Darin's arguement is not stupid it does show how many times since the beinging of IT we decided a little bit would be ok. Rules creep I think is what its called. I believe you have a pretty good handle on what it will take to program ab ECU under a free ECU rule and I believe you know the gains above even a chipped ECU. I also believe that you know 85% of the IT fields will not buy into the new technology and eventually their discouragment will find them doing something else.