Your Thoughts on Mandating 200+TW "Street Tires" in Improved Touring?

[kgobey]

I think Kirk thinks I'm a dick. No, I'm not, I promise, I'm just expressing an opposing opinion. And Greg, I've run these modern tires too, and they are great. But I just don't think it's the right choice for IT, again, not being a dick, I just don't accept them as the right choice for IT. I still think a Spec tire is a better idea - take it from a guy who ran in NASA's SpecE30 series.

It's not a bias or throw in the towel thing, or a moody "ef you" thing either. I want to stay current and I want to learn how to drive on modern racing gear/equipment. And maybe it's time that I get off the pot and step up to Nationals, I mean, I've been running SOLO2, HPDE, Wheel to wheel and instructing for 24 years, I've certainly earned the right to pursue that, I just wish the SCCA had a national place ti run my 325 that wouldn't cost me $20,000 more to be competitive.

[gran racing]

race competent ABS systems. It seems to me a reasonable approach for older non-abs cars is to allow brake upgrades. Something like any single piece rotor with any 4 piston caliper, so long as it fits inside a 17" wheel, for the front. Upgrade to disk for the rear, if drum.

Oh boy. I better get a credit card with a much higher limit.

FWIW, on my previous ITB car there would have been some benefit to have fit it with rear drum brakes based on some pretty credible testing using a very similar platform (Prelude / Accord).

[Greg Amy]

I think Kirk thinks I'm a dick.

Kirk doesn't think you're a dick. Kirk just disagrees with your logical discussion.

And toward that point...you "want to stay current and I want to learn how to drive on modern racing gear/equipment."

In Improved Touring.

[kgobey]

And toward that point...you "want to stay current and I want to learn how to drive on modern racing gear/equipment."

In Improved Touring.

Hahaha I know! I know! and in a 1986 325is - a car I used to lust for when I was 17!!!

[JeffYoung]

I'm on the ITAC still and in favor of this. 200TW and probably max 8" wheels, any diameter.


I think it will initially be a huge boon to IT. The problem, as always, is competition and popularity. If this works like we think it might, damn right there will be a "who makes the fastests 200TW" war. If IT participation levels don't go up, then it will just mean cheaper tires for those who stay. Regardless, either rway, it helps IT, either with more numbers, or cheaper running costs.

[Conover]

I'm on the ITAC still and in favor of this. 200TW and probably max 8" wheels, any diameter.


I think it will initially be a huge boon to IT. The problem, as always, is competition and popularity. If this works like we think it might, damn right there will be a "who makes the fastests 200TW" war. If IT participation levels don't go up, then it will just mean cheaper tires for those who stay. Regardless, either rway, it helps IT, either with more numbers, or cheaper running costs.

Sign me up! :-)

[Greg Amy]

As noted elsewhere...

Just make it part of the scrotum cup 2019 rules, must be on skreet tars.

Seems like a lot of kids have the affinity for the Purple Crack and would oppose the change.


So let them continue to run the Purple Crack, and let anyone on 200TW tires drop a class, see if anyone dies.

[Knestis]

I'm on the ITAC still and in favor of this. 200TW and probably max 8" wheels, any diameter.


I think it will initially be a huge boon to IT. The problem, as always, is competition and popularity. If this works like we think it might, damn right there will be a "who makes the fastests 200TW" war. If IT participation levels don't go up, then it will just mean cheaper tires for those who stay. Regardless, either rway, it helps IT, either with more numbers, or cheaper running costs.

I had an interesting experienced this past week, shopping for summer tires for my Fit. I saved one set of ex-Pablo Kosei K1s. Now that I'm moving to somewhere closer to civilization (less crappy roads), and partially in memory of our blue buddy, I thought I'd just get something that approximates the same diameter of the OE 16" alloys on (drum roll please) 14" wheels.

Wow. When the tire shop guys got done laughing about the old guy's weird idea, we learned that a couple of the most popular sized tires from when was buying Yokohamas (et al.) for racing are getting close to being NLA. (EDIT - at all. Not looking for DOT race tires.)

Realization? It might be time to completely set free wheel size restrictions in IT. I *think* it was you who proposed a "must fit in this size box" rule instead...? Regardless, that would be a sensible rule change parallel to a shift to ****** *****.

K

[240zdave]

What about weight penalties for cars on Hoosiers / weight breaks for cars on 200TW? That might satisfy the "I don't want to give up my HoHo's" crowd.

[gran racing]

I would think determining how much weight would be challenging. And I already began thinking about which tracks I'd sacrifice the weight for better cornering and vice versa.

[JeffGio]

It'd be great if a single spec tire manufacture could be selected, 100TW included. Doubt it could cover everyone's tire needs, but the potential of a spec pricing package might exist.

I too hear many friends who are primarily lemons guys say they'd like to give SCCA/NASA a try. The rub is that lemons doesn't do car leveling. While there are a small number of teams focused on, and capable of winning, most are there to simply circulate around and party. This is of course great, but doesn't really prepare one for sprint racing, speaking generally. These cars could have very different lap time potential and wouldn't necessarily have a good race amongst themselves.

They could be allowed in under the bracket enduro rule set, and have their own class, with A/B/C sub-classes. Maybe a hybrid Bracket event could include sprint races, with one or two groups. Qualify and sprint races first, followed by a break then a 4 hour enduro. They would qualify and have a standard rolling sprint start.

Is the Bracket enduro experiment working out at all currently?

[dickita15]

Is the Bracket enduro experiment working out at all currently?

National has cut back on it's support of the Bracket Enduro program. I think Central Florida and Chicago Regions are still doing some. the underlying CRE rule set is still viable and a number of regions are doing those but that is more about have a way to race with easier license standards.

this conversation is more about car prep.

[Conover]

Anyone writing letters yet? I'm curious about verbiage. I have to admit that I can see the significance of some of the drawbacks of going to 200tw, mainly the hindrance to people crossing into IT.

I would love to be able to buy 6 tires a year and have them still be halfway decent in October. Either way I'm budgeting for 6 tires a year, it's just weather or not I have anything worth a shit to bolt onto the front of my car in October. lol

[Greg Amy]

From the July 2018 Fastrack Prelim Minutes:

IT General
1. #24710 (Club Racing Board) 200 Treadwear Tires
The CRB is considering requiring Tires with a minimum treadwear rating of 200 for all IT cars. Please provide your feedback through crbscca.com.

And...go.


https://www.crbscca.com/

[JeffGio]

I think Kirk thinks I'm a dick. No, I'm not, I promise, I'm just expressing an opposing opinion. And Greg, I've run these modern tires too, and they are great. But I just don't think it's the right choice for IT, again, not being a dick, I just don't accept them as the right choice for IT. I still think a Spec tire is a better idea - take it from a guy who ran in NASA's SpecE30 series.

Glad MCSCC is still kickin it, I've go a couple circa y2k loooong race silo plaques around here somewhere!

A spec tire would be great, but probably can only work for spec classes, where all run the same size. Running Toyo's in SM back in the day was indeed a great thing!

We run 255s on the chump stang on 17x9 wheels. The IT cars are on R7 245s, of course on 15x7 wheels. I suspect we'd not be happy with any options for 200TW on narrow wheels, but such is life.

Another 200TW benefit would be using the same tire for the wet. We'd have to relearn some stuff, but I'm game for a scrote cup trial season.

[Aged racer]

I am also on the ITAC. GREAT to see this much interest and discussion on this topic. So, where are the CRB letters? The more input officially "in the system" the better!

Go here: https://www.crbscca.com

[Knestis]

I think Kirk thinks I'm a dick. ...

NOT AT ALL. I think you're advocating for your position, looking at the question through the lens of an individual competitor. That's your role as a member.

Problem is, policy making - rules, in this case - has to look at broader interests of an organization that's made up of hundreds of potentially conflicting member interests.

K

[kgobey]

NOT AT ALL. I think you're advocating for your position, looking at the question through the lens of an individual competitor. That's your role as a member.

Problem is, policy making - rules, in this case - has to look at broader interests of an organization that's made up of hundreds of potentially conflicting member interests.

K

Understandable. I really think there is room in IT for a Spec tire, Hoosier is just one of many. Mandating a 100-130 TW tire, I think if I am correct that's where the Maxxis and R888r play. IMO changing to that sort of TW rating would allow us as a group maintain the "race" aspect of the tires and maintain the fun factor. I really think modern extreme performance tires offer a great bang for the buck, I don't see them actually adding a cost benefit over existing DOT R Compound choices that are already marketed and sold differently to Hoosiers.

Can I try to bring LeChump back into this?

I know for a fact LeChump guys want to race with us. I say we include them explicitly. Call out a "Low Cost, Low Bureaucracy IT" series that basically allows them to race in LeChump trim and LeChump tires with us and get them to pump up our fields.

The IT format is still good, it's still interesting. But with PT and GTS and SE30 and 944 and Honda Challenge and LeChump, we have to open our doors to a new world that has grown up and stands tall right where we used to stand. Low Bureaucracy and zero snobbery is the goal for these racers.

[seckerich]

I like the idea of testing the waters with an IT tire that is cheaper and lasts longer. I would have to see the facts on true cost of any change and what support we would get. There is a lot of value in having tire vendors at the track and in the Southeast that means Hoosier dealers. It is my understanding they will have something to offer soon that may fit the bill. Willing to wait and see what that option is. I learned a long time ago to dance with the one that brought you. Would not like a spec tire, but want our current vendors to have an option.

[georgethefierce]

Can I try to bring LeChump back into this?

I know for a fact LeChump guys want to race with us. I say we include them explicitly. Call out a "Low Cost, Low Bureaucracy IT" series that basically allows them to race in LeChump trim and LeChump tires with us and get them to pump up our fields.

The IT format is still good, it's still interesting. But with PT and GTS and SE30 and 944 and Honda Challenge and LeChump, we have to open our doors to a new world that has grown up and stands tall right where we used to stand. Low Bureaucracy and zero snobbery is the goal for these racers.

we do this is the Northeast with a regional ITEZ class....but they can run hoo hoos there if they so wish IIRC.