Your Thoughts on Mandating 200+TW "Street Tires" in Improved Touring?

[JeffGio]

What if Hoosier offered a 200TW tire...?

Maybe, hear it's in the works, but worry it'll be too good when shaved to nothing, and of course they will be overly proud of their tire.

[kgobey]

While I can appreciate the desire to both distinguish IT from the rest of the SCCA's classes as a "beginner" and a "regional only/low budget" class I don't think racing on non-race compound tires is actually the smart thing to do.

I realize that non-race tires are cheaper, and I realize that non-race tires are almost as good as race tires are in some cases, I do think that running tires that are not specifically designed to be raced will not have any measurable effect on either participation or cost of racing.

My rationale is this:

A: CrapCan/Lechump racing is successful because of 3 basic aspects we can never achieve with IT:
------------------1. simple rules with an absurdly low entry cost.
------------------2. a crazy amount of track-time for the dollar.
------------------3. Teamwork and group-cost sharing that both enable an aspect of racing that binds groups of friends as well as distributing the cost-load across 3 to 6 members.

B. Street/non-race tires tend to display other issues that DOT-R compound tires are engineered to avoid
------------------1. Chunking of the tread blocks
------------------2. Severe rolling of the tire and sidewall/edge degradation

Note that just because we know that "Extreme Performance Summer Tires" are good for racing Lechump/Crapcan doesn't mean we'd see everyone come out on these Extreme performance tires.

C. Size. A quick check of the Tire Rack list I see nothing smaller than 14" and of the 14's and 15's on offer, I see one size, a narrow selection that many of us would have to make changes to the cars - relatively expensive changes to accommodate.

As an example. My car is an ITS car. I can fit 225/45 and 225/50 Hoosier R7's on that car because I bought a wheel that has an offset that makes them work with rolled fenders. I have a specific set of springs that I use with Hoosiers that overpower the grip for the R888's I run on track days and I have quite a bit more camber than I would otherwise need. I have invested a lot of money into getting this right, and time. You're asking me to do this again for the RE71R or BFG Rival S1.5. I'm not looking forward to that. But maybe that's something we can dismiss as realized cost. But it's still painful to think about doing this again.

To me the answer of controlling the cost of tires and still distinguishing IT as the "beginner" and a "regional only/low budget" class, would be to seek out a supplier who'd be able to step up and supply long lasting, "race-engineered" tires with a regional level contingency. Toyo RA1's, RR's R88R's, Maxxis Victra RC-1, even someone hungry like https://www.natiresusa.com/ might be willing to jump into the DOT race tire market if we proposed that 5000 IT racers would all switch to their tires with the understanding that they'd step up and supply us. Maybe even Hoosier would create an "IT" tire that we would all use if we reached out with the idea and the threat of us all dropping them for a spec tire.

Another point of Lechump/Crapcan racers. They desperately want somewhere to test and improve their cars that are not tied up in the endurance series. A lot of these guys want to race in the SCCA/NASA and MCSCC where I race. Giving them an IT class of their own would be far more attractive than asking them to step up and build ITC, B, A or S cars... ITJunk/ITLemon would be a much more successful idea IMO, and let them know they are supposed to follow their series' rules to be compliant and let them self-police. If it becomes a "thing" then we can break out their classes into sub categories.

While I understand the need to re-brand IT, I don't think starting here is actually the right idea. This has the potential of undermining the interest of a lot of the current IT community. Let's start with a spec tire.

[Knestis]

A spec tire will be problematic in a multi-mark category because the size availability issue is even greater than if you have a number of manufacturers from which to choose.

Look - at the end of the day, you're opposed to the idea of 200TW tires because the status quo works for you. There's nothing wrong with that but sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The good news for you is that SCCA rules-making has traditionally been pretty responsive to minority needs - if you've got the ear of the powers-that-be. When I go looking at current IT grids, I see pretty much NOBODY who argued that "National status will kill IT." Individual entrants come and go, and turnover in the club - in racing - is astronomical. The Club won't make a decision based on any kind of strategic plan, and a few connected people can pretty much kill any proposed change, so you're probably safe.

K

[jjjanos]

A spec tire will be problematic in a multi-mark category because the size availability issue is even greater than if you have a number of manufacturers from which to choose.

Look - at the end of the day, you're opposed to the idea of 200TW tires because the status quo works for you. There's nothing wrong with that but sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The good news for you is that SCCA rules-making has traditionally been pretty responsive to minority needs - if you've got the ear of the powers-that-be. When I go looking at current IT grids, I see pretty much NOBODY who argued that "National status will kill IT." Individual entrants come and go, and turnover in the club - in racing - is astronomical. The Club won't make a decision based on any kind of strategic plan, and a few connected people can pretty much kill any proposed change, so you're probably safe.

K

The status quo works for pretty much everyone NOW. We essentially have a spec tire — purple crack.

What they want is a significant change that, for some, will is an illusion. They WILL shave their tires to nada, negating most of the advantage of the cheaper tire. I say this is a certainty because they could use the tires, purple crack they already have but do not. They go buy new purple crack. Why? Because someone else bought purple crack and they cannot allow a mine-shaft gap! The same bloody thing will happen with shaving the life away if we go to 200TW.

[Greg Amy]

While I can appreciate the desire to both distinguish IT from the rest of the SCCA's classes as a "beginner" and a "regional only/low budget" class I don't think racing on non-race compound tires is actually the smart thing to do.

Don't be misled by the moniker "street tires"; these are race compound tires. Nobody buys these things to go on their street cars, they'd only last 15,000 miles.

They're just not as soft as The Purple Crack.

These things are leagues above what we were racing on 15 years ago (Hoosier R3S03; I still have a pair of 2-cycle ones that have been kept inside in a bag away from electricity, you want 'em? )

[kgobey]

I think Kirk thinks I'm a dick. No, I'm not, I promise, I'm just expressing an opposing opinion. And Greg, I've run these modern tires too, and they are great. But I just don't think it's the right choice for IT, again, not being a dick, I just don't accept them as the right choice for IT. I still think a Spec tire is a better idea - take it from a guy who ran in NASA's SpecE30 series.

It's not a bias or throw in the towel thing, or a moody "ef you" thing either. I want to stay current and I want to learn how to drive on modern racing gear/equipment. And maybe it's time that I get off the pot and step up to Nationals, I mean, I've been running SOLO2, HPDE, Wheel to wheel and instructing for 24 years, I've certainly earned the right to pursue that, I just wish the SCCA had a national place ti run my 325 that wouldn't cost me $20,000 more to be competitive.

[gran racing]

race competent ABS systems. It seems to me a reasonable approach for older non-abs cars is to allow brake upgrades. Something like any single piece rotor with any 4 piston caliper, so long as it fits inside a 17" wheel, for the front. Upgrade to disk for the rear, if drum.

Oh boy. I better get a credit card with a much higher limit.

FWIW, on my previous ITB car there would have been some benefit to have fit it with rear drum brakes based on some pretty credible testing using a very similar platform (Prelude / Accord).

[Greg Amy]

I think Kirk thinks I'm a dick.

Kirk doesn't think you're a dick. Kirk just disagrees with your logical discussion.

And toward that point...you "want to stay current and I want to learn how to drive on modern racing gear/equipment."

In Improved Touring.

[kgobey]

And toward that point...you "want to stay current and I want to learn how to drive on modern racing gear/equipment."

In Improved Touring.

Hahaha I know! I know! and in a 1986 325is - a car I used to lust for when I was 17!!!

[JeffYoung]

I'm on the ITAC still and in favor of this. 200TW and probably max 8" wheels, any diameter.


I think it will initially be a huge boon to IT. The problem, as always, is competition and popularity. If this works like we think it might, damn right there will be a "who makes the fastests 200TW" war. If IT participation levels don't go up, then it will just mean cheaper tires for those who stay. Regardless, either rway, it helps IT, either with more numbers, or cheaper running costs.

[JeffGio]

It'd be great if a single spec tire manufacture could be selected, 100TW included. Doubt it could cover everyone's tire needs, but the potential of a spec pricing package might exist.

I too hear many friends who are primarily lemons guys say they'd like to give SCCA/NASA a try. The rub is that lemons doesn't do car leveling. While there are a small number of teams focused on, and capable of winning, most are there to simply circulate around and party. This is of course great, but doesn't really prepare one for sprint racing, speaking generally. These cars could have very different lap time potential and wouldn't necessarily have a good race amongst themselves.

They could be allowed in under the bracket enduro rule set, and have their own class, with A/B/C sub-classes. Maybe a hybrid Bracket event could include sprint races, with one or two groups. Qualify and sprint races first, followed by a break then a 4 hour enduro. They would qualify and have a standard rolling sprint start.

Is the Bracket enduro experiment working out at all currently?

[JeffGio]

I think Kirk thinks I'm a dick. No, I'm not, I promise, I'm just expressing an opposing opinion. And Greg, I've run these modern tires too, and they are great. But I just don't think it's the right choice for IT, again, not being a dick, I just don't accept them as the right choice for IT. I still think a Spec tire is a better idea - take it from a guy who ran in NASA's SpecE30 series.

Glad MCSCC is still kickin it, I've go a couple circa y2k loooong race silo plaques around here somewhere!

A spec tire would be great, but probably can only work for spec classes, where all run the same size. Running Toyo's in SM back in the day was indeed a great thing!

We run 255s on the chump stang on 17x9 wheels. The IT cars are on R7 245s, of course on 15x7 wheels. I suspect we'd not be happy with any options for 200TW on narrow wheels, but such is life.

Another 200TW benefit would be using the same tire for the wet. We'd have to relearn some stuff, but I'm game for a scrote cup trial season.

[Aged racer]

I am also on the ITAC. GREAT to see this much interest and discussion on this topic. So, where are the CRB letters? The more input officially "in the system" the better!

Go here: https://www.crbscca.com

[Knestis]

I think Kirk thinks I'm a dick. ...

NOT AT ALL. I think you're advocating for your position, looking at the question through the lens of an individual competitor. That's your role as a member.

Problem is, policy making - rules, in this case - has to look at broader interests of an organization that's made up of hundreds of potentially conflicting member interests.

K

[kgobey]

NOT AT ALL. I think you're advocating for your position, looking at the question through the lens of an individual competitor. That's your role as a member.

Problem is, policy making - rules, in this case - has to look at broader interests of an organization that's made up of hundreds of potentially conflicting member interests.

K

Understandable. I really think there is room in IT for a Spec tire, Hoosier is just one of many. Mandating a 100-130 TW tire, I think if I am correct that's where the Maxxis and R888r play. IMO changing to that sort of TW rating would allow us as a group maintain the "race" aspect of the tires and maintain the fun factor. I really think modern extreme performance tires offer a great bang for the buck, I don't see them actually adding a cost benefit over existing DOT R Compound choices that are already marketed and sold differently to Hoosiers.

Can I try to bring LeChump back into this?

I know for a fact LeChump guys want to race with us. I say we include them explicitly. Call out a "Low Cost, Low Bureaucracy IT" series that basically allows them to race in LeChump trim and LeChump tires with us and get them to pump up our fields.

The IT format is still good, it's still interesting. But with PT and GTS and SE30 and 944 and Honda Challenge and LeChump, we have to open our doors to a new world that has grown up and stands tall right where we used to stand. Low Bureaucracy and zero snobbery is the goal for these racers.

[seckerich]

I like the idea of testing the waters with an IT tire that is cheaper and lasts longer. I would have to see the facts on true cost of any change and what support we would get. There is a lot of value in having tire vendors at the track and in the Southeast that means Hoosier dealers. It is my understanding they will have something to offer soon that may fit the bill. Willing to wait and see what that option is. I learned a long time ago to dance with the one that brought you. Would not like a spec tire, but want our current vendors to have an option.

[georgethefierce]

Can I try to bring LeChump back into this?

I know for a fact LeChump guys want to race with us. I say we include them explicitly. Call out a "Low Cost, Low Bureaucracy IT" series that basically allows them to race in LeChump trim and LeChump tires with us and get them to pump up our fields.

The IT format is still good, it's still interesting. But with PT and GTS and SE30 and 944 and Honda Challenge and LeChump, we have to open our doors to a new world that has grown up and stands tall right where we used to stand. Low Bureaucracy and zero snobbery is the goal for these racers.

we do this is the Northeast with a regional ITEZ class....but they can run hoo hoos there if they so wish IIRC.