Your Thoughts on Mandating 200+TW "Street Tires" in Improved Touring?

[jjjanos]

Jeff, have you researched, or had experience with the tires being discussed?

There is no Goldilocks tire for my car. The idea has surface merit. Someone needs to test the water to see if the promised benefits are real.

I suspect YOU will be the only guy shaving them.

I've been associated with this club since 1973 -- if there is an unfair advantage to be had, drivers always will seek to find it. It's simply the nature of the beast. I've seen IT guys using the super-expensive fuel at VIR. For what they spent in fuel, they could do a track day and actually go faster.

[RX555]

I wrote my letter a few days ago opposing this. I had to guess the reason for this proposal as still don't see it stated what problem this is trying so solve. Others such as Matt Downing have stated it well already, so I'll keep this short. I just don't see why you need a rule for this. If you want to run those tires, run them, but don't make it a rule.

[XelderX]

I wrote my letter a few days ago opposing this. I had to guess the reason for this proposal as still don't see it stated what problem this is trying so solve. Others such as Matt Downing have stated it well already, so I'll keep this short. I just don't see why you need a rule for this. If you want to run those tires, run them, but don't make it a rule.

If that actually worked the SCCA wouldn't need so many classes. In fact why have different classes within IT. Let's just have ITR and everything goes there.

We break it down to other classes because we want to run other cars, but keep some level of competitiveness. That helps participation. We care about being competitive. If we didn't, why would we spend so much time building to a ruleset when we could just do whatever we wanted and run untimed track days?

We race SCCA because it's the best place for competition. We want to spend less money on tires so we can run more races.

[downingracing]

If that actually worked the SCCA wouldn't need so many classes. In fact why have different classes within IT. Let's just have ITR and everything goes there.

We break it down to other classes because we want to run other cars, but keep some level of competitiveness. That helps participation. We care about being competitive. If we didn't, why would we spend so much time building to a ruleset when we could just do whatever we wanted and run untimed track days?

We race SCCA because it's the best place for competition. We want to spend less money on tires so we can run more races.

id be fine with one IT class if that what was already built. Cars would be classed with modifications to equalize the cars (best they can like current IT classes) and we would have all selected the car with modifications we liked to race. This would do nothing to control costs.

We have a set of IT classes to try and limit the modifications and provide a cheap place for races to play. Some cars are classes better than others, some cars have superior aftermarket support, and some are being raced for the love of the marquee.

Wanting to force the class to street tires in an effort to save money so more races can be run won’t work. The rules creep has already started with talk of changing the tire size rule to accommodate all classes on street tires. Any savings on street tires will be spent on new rims (2-3 sets min per racer) and could (and will) take years to recoup. And the rule actually requires an outlay of additional money at the start to get going. The exact opposite effect of what’s proposed. Pissing off the existing racers at the hope of attracting new ones is a bad idea. Even once that initial expense is offset, what have we accomplished? People who were running mid pack are still running mid pack but supposedly saving a few hundred dollars a year on race rubber?

I'd propose a new (old) class (yes - another class!) called Showroom Stock. True showroom stock as it was back in the beginning. Completely stock vehicles with ONLY a cage, race seat, belts, window net, fire system, and any paint job/number you want. Stock tires, brakes, bushings, shocks, drivetrain... Mandate a common street tire for the class and go.

[XelderX]

2-3 sets minimum? Dude, I've had one set of rims for my car in the 3 years I've raced it and those rims cost me $600...half the cost of a set of Hoosiers. Buying 15" rims isn't an issue when you can basically get a free set every time you buy a set of street tires over what Hoosiers cost.

[downingracing]

Two sets of rims with race tires mounted and a set of rain tires. (Three sets minimum) You'll burn any cost savings having a tire or two mounted at the track, so at least two additional rims are a necessity (to me) for race rubber.

I bought two sets of gently used sm7 tires for $530 shipped that can last a complete season.

[XelderX]

Two sets of rims with race tires mounted and a set of rain tires. (Three sets minimum) You'll burn any cost savings having a tire or two mounted at the track, so at least two additional rims are a necessity (to me) for race rubber.

I bought two sets of gently used sm7 tires for $530 shipped that can last a complete season.

I borrowed a pair of rims to do some testing with, but I only have 4 rims for the car. I can't run enough races to have a shot at a season championship so if there is a good chance of rain I don't race. It's way cheaper and there is just too much of a risk for extra damage making a mistake on a wet track. I don't race if I don't have enough tire left to get through the weekend.

I started out on used SM7s, then a season of used R7s. This year was my first year where I purchased brand new R7s. I run a 225 front tire so SM takeoffs don't do me much good on that half of the car.

Listen, I get it. You don't want to run street tires, but you need to look at the big picture. The trends have already started to play out. I came from Solo Street Prepared category. It's basically the autocross equivalent of IT. It's a Rcomp class. My car used to be a nationally competitive autocross car. It's transition to IT was very easy as most of the car didn't have to be changed. I still use the same suspension and drivetrain. Street Prepared autocross is dying. When I started out in F Street Prepared the first year at Nationals there were over 30 entries. Last year there was half that many. It's been on a steady decline. All the Street Prepared classes (production cars on R-comp classes...sound familiar?) have been dying. Despite that steady decline Solo Nationals has been setting attendance records every year. So where are the extra entries going? Racing slick classes aren't really seeing substantial growth. The answer is classes using street tires...by a huge amount.

So we can all sit here and debate about the costs of this or the reasons for that. What we all have to realize is that the current IT philosophy is no longer appealing. You can watch it's Solo sister slowly withering to nothing. Something has to change and the powers that be are looking for something. If street tires aren't the answer then it doesn't really matter anyway. The IT philosophy is no longer appealing in a meaningful way.

If IT dies off then most of us have few choices for racing within the SCCA without it getting more expensive...either in car purchase price or running costs. Those who can will, but for most of us we will have to find alternatives and sadly it probably won't be in SCCA sprint racing.

[RX555]

If that actually worked the SCCA wouldn't need so many classes. In fact why have different classes within IT. Let's just have ITR and everything goes there.

We break it down to other classes because we want to run other cars, but keep some level of competitiveness. That helps participation. We care about being competitive. If we didn't, why would we spend so much time building to a ruleset when we could just do whatever we wanted and run untimed track days?

We race SCCA because it's the best place for competition. We want to spend less money on tires so we can run more races.

The gentlemen's agreements to run a certain tire in some Regions has worked pretty well. I still don't think 200tw should be a rule.
Having raced IT for about ten years, tire budgets have never been a concern to me. I was never the fastest car and always used my tires longer than I should have. I normally buy one set a year for 4 or so races and use the previous year's set for practice. I think there are quite a few IT racers that also use tires as long as they can. I only recently started buying Hoosiers and that was only because of availability and age of the Toyo/Hankook/Kumho I used to buy.
If a person can't afford a set of R comps once a year or so, not sure club racing is for them.

As an aside, I'll never get the mentality of not racing because it rains. Some real fun can be had and it will make you a better driver.

[XelderX]

The gentlemen's agreements to run a certain tire in some Regions has worked pretty well. I still don't think 200tw should be a rule.
Having raced IT for about ten years, tire budgets have never been a concern to me. I was never the fastest car and always used my tires longer than I should have. I normally buy one set a year for 4 or so races and use the previous year's set for practice. I think there are quite a few IT racers that also use tires as long as they can. I only recently started buying Hoosiers and that was only because of availability and age of the Toyo/Hankook/Kumho I used to buy.
If a person can't afford a set of R comps once a year or so, not sure club racing is for them.

As an aside, I'll never get the mentality of not racing because it rains. Some real fun can be had and it will make you a better driver.

I don't run in the rain because I don't have rain tires. If it was just damp and Rcomps were still the right tire then I would. So far in three years I've only not ran one race on purpose because of rain. All but one car in my entire group made the same choice. Hoosier rain tires are magic, but have very short useable lives. For me it just hasn't been a good financial move to buy them, maybe not even use them if we get lucky, and then throw them away because they age out in a year or two.

To your point about one set of Rcomps a year. I can afford that, but just like you that only gets me a handful of races every season. For me that means I run VIR three times a year and that's pretty much it. I want to race more, but having to ration it out because tires get used up keeps me from doing more races. I went through this exact scenario in Solo Street Prepared. Every year Hoosier prices would creep up. Competitors left and the chances for contingency dried up. I started not going to events to save tires. I'm now in a street tire class where I can afford two sets of tires a year and do four times the number of events. Contingency is a possibility again (Bridgestone took good care of us). We have three times the number of entries as my old Street Prepared class.

As I said before, I would be very interested to try the Hankook DOT-R tires and participate in a gentleman's agreement, but getting everyone to participate (like IT7) at every track in multiple east coast regions seems unlikely.

[dickita15]

my experience is the wheel cost is not significant, when we in IT7 went to 15" Nittos from 13" Hoosiers the cost for 4 wheels and tires was about the same price as a set of Hoosiers.
the way we structured the rules in New England is you can run any tire but you only get year end points on Nittos. That way the new guys can race with the shit they have laying around.

even with my positive experience the main reason i support this is having some differentiation between class. there is so little difference between T, ST, Limited Prep Prod and IT that it just makes sense to me to have classes that offer a different experience.

[Flyinglizard]

I had IT cars when this was first considered , about 6 yrs ago. I now run Prod cars only . I really have no dog , (I miss my Dog)
These are my observations ;

I have been racing on 200 TW tires for 8 yrs. The smaller sizes can get greasy when over driven and asking for repeated turns. Like Roebling road on 205/15 tires. The answer is to use large tires and keep the outer edges cool. The2800# /300WHP , truck runs on 315/17 rears and 255/17 fronts. 10.5 and 9 in wide rims. They last as long as 40 hrs and as short as 14rs. The brand matters less so then the size/loading/track conditions..
Considering that, the optimal tire is large and the wheel larger . 245/40/15 are run on 8 or 9in rims. For a SM style/ weight car.
I have no idea how IT would allow wide wheels. and keep them inside the fenders.

I think the right way for IT to use these would be to have a transition year with some weight adjustment for the Hoes and the 200s. I have run the same cars on both tires and the delta is about 6% weight turns out pretty close. ( at 110HP2200#)
Maybe remove 3% from the 200 cars and add 3% for the Hoes. I think the Hossiers will cover the weight even at 6%. But that can be changed or the 200 can be mandated after a year.

13 option ;https://simpletire.com/federal-p255-...0aAkEaEALw_wcB

[jjjanos]

even with my positive experience the main reason i support this is having some differentiation between class. there is so little difference between T, ST, Limited Prep Prod and IT that it just makes sense to me to have classes that offer a different experience.

Then combine T, ST Limited Prep Prod and IT into a single category. Instead of 45 cars spread across 15 classes, you have 45 cars spread over 5.

We can equalize performance by giving mods points. Too many points and you move up a class.

I mean, if we are going to be arguing about reclassifying cars because low HP cars are going to be killed by torque hogs, we might as well do a full nuclear exchange in terms of debating the finer points of whether an engine swap is the same as running Hoosiers versus TW200. I mean, what could go wrong?

[XelderX]

I've been associated with this club since 1973 -- if there is an unfair advantage to be had, drivers always will seek to find it. It's simply the nature of the beast. I've seen IT guys using the super-expensive fuel at VIR. For what they spent in fuel, they could do a track day and actually go faster.

I use the slightly more expensive fuel at VIR (93 octane or whatever the lowest is). Mostly because it's convenient. I know exactly how many gallons I want and the pump counts it out for me. I don't own enough fuel jugs to get through a weekend and the cost of having to drive the tow vehicle around to get more fuel pretty much offsets the cost of track fuel. Of course that will all change when I finally get my ECU installed and tuned.