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Thread: Your Thoughts on Mandating 200+TW "Street Tires" in Improved Touring?

  1. #101
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    I don't know autocross, but I'm guessing the heat and beating tires take are different from road racing. So what works for autocross may not work for road race. If this street tire mandate becomes the rule, it will be some time before anyone shares data on what works (shaving/heat cycles) for each tire brand. Racers dont always share when an advantage is on the table.
    Matt Downing
    1995 Honda Civic EX Coupe - ITA
    Ohio Valley Region, SCCA

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by downingracing View Post
    I don't know autocross, but I'm guessing the heat and beating tires take are different from road racing. So what works for autocross may not work for road race. If this street tire mandate becomes the rule, it will be some time before anyone shares data on what works (shaving/heat cycles) for each tire brand. Racers dont always share when an advantage is on the table.
    Overheating the front tires in 60 seconds is pretty common in my Corvette. We compete a lot on concrete which generates more grip. Think ambient to 160* in a minute. I would love to have straights as long as most road courses have to help manage tire temperature. I think the street tires will be the same or easier to make last on road courses.

  3. #103
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    Here is one issue that I'm not happy about and it could skew people's data with regards to street tires. If you run street tires on a track with a lot of race tire rubber laid down the track will feel "greasy". The race tire rubber and street tire rubber don't work well together. Basically the street tires will perform better on a green track than one with a lot of race tire laps on it.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by XelderX View Post
    Here is one issue that I'm not happy about and it could skew people's data with regards to street tires. If you run street tires on a track with a lot of race tire rubber laid down the track will feel "greasy". The race tire rubber and street tire rubber don't work well together. Basically the street tires will perform better on a green track than one with a lot of race tire laps on it.
    That's a pretty big concern given that every other class running a race weekend will be on at least r-conp if not full slicks.
    Matt Downing
    1995 Honda Civic EX Coupe - ITA
    Ohio Valley Region, SCCA

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by XelderX View Post
    Here is one issue that I'm not happy about and it could skew people's data with regards to street tires. If you run street tires on a track with a lot of race tire rubber laid down the track will feel "greasy". The race tire rubber and street tire rubber don't work well together. Basically the street tires will perform better on a green track than one with a lot of race tire laps on it.
    Happens at the drag strip as well. "Street tires" or drag radials will pull the rubber up from the starting line leaving bald spots. Had a nice chat (and beers!) with Bill Bader Jr at Norwalk, now Summit Raceway during a Sport Compact event. YEARS ago. Not sure if the newer drag radial compounds, like the street tires SCCA racers now use, play along better. Need a cool Friday night to go check them out
    BoneSpec Transmissions
    Honda D-series tranny specialist

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by XelderX View Post
    If that actually worked the SCCA wouldn't need so many classes. In fact why have different classes within IT. Let's just have ITR and everything goes there.

    We break it down to other classes because we want to run other cars, but keep some level of competitiveness. That helps participation. We care about being competitive. If we didn't, why would we spend so much time building to a ruleset when we could just do whatever we wanted and run untimed track days?

    We race SCCA because it's the best place for competition. We want to spend less money on tires so we can run more races.
    The gentlemen's agreements to run a certain tire in some Regions has worked pretty well. I still don't think 200tw should be a rule.
    Having raced IT for about ten years, tire budgets have never been a concern to me. I was never the fastest car and always used my tires longer than I should have. I normally buy one set a year for 4 or so races and use the previous year's set for practice. I think there are quite a few IT racers that also use tires as long as they can. I only recently started buying Hoosiers and that was only because of availability and age of the Toyo/Hankook/Kumho I used to buy.
    If a person can't afford a set of R comps once a year or so, not sure club racing is for them.

    As an aside, I'll never get the mentality of not racing because it rains. Some real fun can be had and it will make you a better driver.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by RX555 View Post
    The gentlemen's agreements to run a certain tire in some Regions has worked pretty well. I still don't think 200tw should be a rule.
    Having raced IT for about ten years, tire budgets have never been a concern to me. I was never the fastest car and always used my tires longer than I should have. I normally buy one set a year for 4 or so races and use the previous year's set for practice. I think there are quite a few IT racers that also use tires as long as they can. I only recently started buying Hoosiers and that was only because of availability and age of the Toyo/Hankook/Kumho I used to buy.
    If a person can't afford a set of R comps once a year or so, not sure club racing is for them.

    As an aside, I'll never get the mentality of not racing because it rains. Some real fun can be had and it will make you a better driver.
    I don't run in the rain because I don't have rain tires. If it was just damp and Rcomps were still the right tire then I would. So far in three years I've only not ran one race on purpose because of rain. All but one car in my entire group made the same choice. Hoosier rain tires are magic, but have very short useable lives. For me it just hasn't been a good financial move to buy them, maybe not even use them if we get lucky, and then throw them away because they age out in a year or two.

    To your point about one set of Rcomps a year. I can afford that, but just like you that only gets me a handful of races every season. For me that means I run VIR three times a year and that's pretty much it. I want to race more, but having to ration it out because tires get used up keeps me from doing more races. I went through this exact scenario in Solo Street Prepared. Every year Hoosier prices would creep up. Competitors left and the chances for contingency dried up. I started not going to events to save tires. I'm now in a street tire class where I can afford two sets of tires a year and do four times the number of events. Contingency is a possibility again (Bridgestone took good care of us). We have three times the number of entries as my old Street Prepared class.

    As I said before, I would be very interested to try the Hankook DOT-R tires and participate in a gentleman's agreement, but getting everyone to participate (like IT7) at every track in multiple east coast regions seems unlikely.

  8. #108
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    my experience is the wheel cost is not significant, when we in IT7 went to 15" Nittos from 13" Hoosiers the cost for 4 wheels and tires was about the same price as a set of Hoosiers.
    the way we structured the rules in New England is you can run any tire but you only get year end points on Nittos. That way the new guys can race with the shit they have laying around.

    even with my positive experience the main reason i support this is having some differentiation between class. there is so little difference between T, ST, Limited Prep Prod and IT that it just makes sense to me to have classes that offer a different experience.
    dick patullo
    ner scca IT7 Rx7

  9. #109
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    I had IT cars when this was first considered , about 6 yrs ago. I now run Prod cars only . I really have no dog , (I miss my Dog)
    These are my observations ;

    I have been racing on 200 TW tires for 8 yrs. The smaller sizes can get greasy when over driven and asking for repeated turns. Like Roebling road on 205/15 tires. The answer is to use large tires and keep the outer edges cool. The2800# /300WHP , truck runs on 315/17 rears and 255/17 fronts. 10.5 and 9 in wide rims. They last as long as 40 hrs and as short as 14rs. The brand matters less so then the size/loading/track conditions..
    Considering that, the optimal tire is large and the wheel larger . 245/40/15 are run on 8 or 9in rims. For a SM style/ weight car.
    I have no idea how IT would allow wide wheels. and keep them inside the fenders.

    I think the right way for IT to use these would be to have a transition year with some weight adjustment for the Hoes and the 200s. I have run the same cars on both tires and the delta is about 6% weight turns out pretty close. ( at 110HP2200#)
    Maybe remove 3% from the 200 cars and add 3% for the Hoes. I think the Hossiers will cover the weight even at 6%. But that can be changed or the 200 can be mandated after a year.

    13 option ;https://simpletire.com/federal-p255-...0aAkEaEALw_wcB
    Last edited by Flyinglizard; 07-06-2018 at 11:18 AM.
    Mike Ogren , FWDracingguide.com, 352.4288.983 ,http://www.ogren-engineering.com/

  10. #110
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    That's also a very good point I was thinking about yesterday, but didn't get around to posting before I went to sleep. The new crop of 200tw tires don't like to be pinched on narrow wheels. They perform best with proper width rims. I think most people would be fine with the IT allowed rim widths already in the rules since most of us are restricted by the contact patch/fender rule first anyway. My car can fit a lot of tire up front legally, but eventually it's depreciating returns as it's more rotating weight and more drag.

  11. #111
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    Letter #24914; For a one year trial period ,Please make 200 TW tires competitive by reducing weight 5% and allowing a wider wheel by 1 in per class .
    For 2019 add weight to non 200 TW tires of 5% while keeping the prior 5% discount for 200 TW. This allows current tires to be run out and promotes the 200 tires.
    Mike Ogren , FWDracingguide.com, 352.4288.983 ,http://www.ogren-engineering.com/

  12. #112
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    Weight break won’t work for many cars that can’t currently make min weight. And my ITA car is close to 5% over weight as is, so I won’t get any slower running Hoosiers (since I’m running them now).
    Matt Downing
    1995 Honda Civic EX Coupe - ITA
    Ohio Valley Region, SCCA

  13. #113
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    Then please post a letter stating that and maybe weight should simply be added for the transition year.
    Mike Ogren , FWDracingguide.com, 352.4288.983 ,http://www.ogren-engineering.com/

  14. #114
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    Already sent my letter against. Not interested in a transition year.
    Matt Downing
    1995 Honda Civic EX Coupe - ITA
    Ohio Valley Region, SCCA

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by dickita15 View Post
    even with my positive experience the main reason i support this is having some differentiation between class. there is so little difference between T, ST, Limited Prep Prod and IT that it just makes sense to me to have classes that offer a different experience.
    Then combine T, ST Limited Prep Prod and IT into a single category. Instead of 45 cars spread across 15 classes, you have 45 cars spread over 5.

    We can equalize performance by giving mods points. Too many points and you move up a class.

    I mean, if we are going to be arguing about reclassifying cars because low HP cars are going to be killed by torque hogs, we might as well do a full nuclear exchange in terms of debating the finer points of whether an engine swap is the same as running Hoosiers versus TW200. I mean, what could go wrong?

  16. #116
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    Let's be honest.

    Those of us who need to maintain momentum and consequently go in deeper and come out harder all the time, don't have a problem with premature use of their rubber. We can make what we're driving hit the apex over and over again without expending our rubber.

    The TW200 tire rule is favored by people who are compensating by driving high HP. high torque cars. I get it, you need the dulling sensation of low grade rubber so you can last longer. What you need to do is slow down a bit, don't get so excited and you can make the rubber last longer.

    <Ducks>

  17. #117
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    I was with you until you said the street tires are supported by high hp cars argument. the handling advantage of a good handling car is magnified on lesser tires, and top speed is higher, too. but I've just driven the things for 4 years, on my IT car, in Hoosier fields. I don't know what I'm talking about.

    and, FWIW, I'm largely against the proposal. Not becasue the tires suck, I like them. It's because of the difficulties, real and percieved, and the lack of REAL differentiation of IT or a clear path for those in IT who DO NOT want to continue with 200TW IT to remain competative with minimal added cost or modification. I AM in support of a newer class between Touring and IT specs using 200TWs, as a path for street AX and trackday guys to come in to club racing.

    the crapcan series success has a lot more to do with "different than SCCA" than the tires. the tires are part of it, and there's a psychological component there, I'm sure, but they aren't the magic bullet.

    what these tires WOULD DO once everything has stabilized around them is reduce the benefit of spending money on tires vs. those who stretch their budgets. anything we can do to reduce the benefit of spending money helps bunch the field up. I loved driving on 200s my package: 205/50R15 Dunlop ZII and ZIIss, 15x6 and 15x7 wheels (2017 rules change) ITB MR2 at 2340-2400 lbs, 400/450 springs, Koni RACE inserts, ST bars, ~105 hp, stock 4.3 final drive. They force you to be smoother, are easier to recover when you over do it, and don't suffer as much from lockups or slides as the DOT-Rs. they were plenty of fun and MADE ME A BETTER DRIVER. I got to my old SM6 times at sebring on them, and when I bolt on R7s now I am a lot faster than I used to be (with room to grow because I'm not used to them). and I never had to worry about heat cycles or weather or not I had tires. do they go off? yes. they slime up in a session (can be cooled) and they eventually hit an age wall (may be improved with storage) where they suddenly just SUCK even though they look fine. I got 3 years, 1/2 of a lemons race, and 2 weekends on a civic wagon at RRR on 2.5 sets (the half set is the one that sat for a long time and gave up on me - but I still ran them for 2 hours in a Lemons race). I saved a BUNCH of money vs. hoosiers.

    But even knowing all of that, I think forcing them on the class with no other changes to prep rules, overall club racing strategy, or category philosophy is a bad idea. I'm not against what some people envision here, I'm against the idea that this is a solution. we have problems, 200TW tires may be part of the answer, but I think piecemealing parts of a solution outside of a cohesive strategy can do more harm than good.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip42 View Post
    I was with you until you said the street tires are supported by high hp cars argument. the handling advantage of a good handling car is magnified on lesser tires, and top speed is higher, too. but I've just driven the things for 4 years, on my IT car, in Hoosier fields. I don't know what I'm talking about.
    Read the post again. I wasn't talking about tires.....

    Having spectated at the 24-hour race at VIR (per the boy's request), those who envision cross-overs are smoking crack. If I read the rules correctly, Champcar requires the removal of all glass except the windshield. Anyone motivated enough to pull glass (without breaking it) and then put it back in (without breaking it) and then take it out again (without breaking), won't be put off by Hoosiers. Hell, it probably would be cheaper to buy new purple crack each weekend then it would be to screw around with the glass constantly.

  19. #119
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    d'oh

    I agree WRT crossover from LeChAmp. sounds good but it's not likely.

  20. #120
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    A bunch of you wrote letters in response to the 200TW proposal and should have gotten a note that those letters have been reviewed and sent to the CRB. The ITAC submitted our recomendation to them last night and cleared all of the letters (as No Action Required) along with it.

    I'm not going to comment further as there has been no decision by the CRB on the recomendation but once I know the final decision I'll pass it along here.

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