Your Thoughts on Mandating 200+TW "Street Tires" in Improved Touring?

[Chip42]

I was with you until you said the street tires are supported by high hp cars argument. the handling advantage of a good handling car is magnified on lesser tires, and top speed is higher, too. but I've just driven the things for 4 years, on my IT car, in Hoosier fields. I don't know what I'm talking about.

and, FWIW, I'm largely against the proposal. Not becasue the tires suck, I like them. It's because of the difficulties, real and percieved, and the lack of REAL differentiation of IT or a clear path for those in IT who DO NOT want to continue with 200TW IT to remain competative with minimal added cost or modification. I AM in support of a newer class between Touring and IT specs using 200TWs, as a path for street AX and trackday guys to come in to club racing.

the crapcan series success has a lot more to do with "different than SCCA" than the tires. the tires are part of it, and there's a psychological component there, I'm sure, but they aren't the magic bullet.

what these tires WOULD DO once everything has stabilized around them is reduce the benefit of spending money on tires vs. those who stretch their budgets. anything we can do to reduce the benefit of spending money helps bunch the field up. I loved driving on 200s my package: 205/50R15 Dunlop ZII and ZIIss, 15x6 and 15x7 wheels (2017 rules change) ITB MR2 at 2340-2400 lbs, 400/450 springs, Koni RACE inserts, ST bars, ~105 hp, stock 4.3 final drive. They force you to be smoother, are easier to recover when you over do it, and don't suffer as much from lockups or slides as the DOT-Rs. they were plenty of fun and MADE ME A BETTER DRIVER. I got to my old SM6 times at sebring on them, and when I bolt on R7s now I am a lot faster than I used to be (with room to grow because I'm not used to them). and I never had to worry about heat cycles or weather or not I had tires. do they go off? yes. they slime up in a session (can be cooled) and they eventually hit an age wall (may be improved with storage) where they suddenly just SUCK even though they look fine. I got 3 years, 1/2 of a lemons race, and 2 weekends on a civic wagon at RRR on 2.5 sets (the half set is the one that sat for a long time and gave up on me - but I still ran them for 2 hours in a Lemons race). I saved a BUNCH of money vs. hoosiers.

But even knowing all of that, I think forcing them on the class with no other changes to prep rules, overall club racing strategy, or category philosophy is a bad idea. I'm not against what some people envision here, I'm against the idea that this is a solution. we have problems, 200TW tires may be part of the answer, but I think piecemealing parts of a solution outside of a cohesive strategy can do more harm than good.

[jjjanos]

I was with you until you said the street tires are supported by high hp cars argument. the handling advantage of a good handling car is magnified on lesser tires, and top speed is higher, too. but I've just driven the things for 4 years, on my IT car, in Hoosier fields. I don't know what I'm talking about.

Read the post again. I wasn't talking about tires.....

Having spectated at the 24-hour race at VIR (per the boy's request), those who envision cross-overs are smoking crack. If I read the rules correctly, Champcar requires the removal of all glass except the windshield. Anyone motivated enough to pull glass (without breaking it) and then put it back in (without breaking it) and then take it out again (without breaking), won't be put off by Hoosiers. Hell, it probably would be cheaper to buy new purple crack each weekend then it would be to screw around with the glass constantly.

[Chip42]

d'oh

I agree WRT crossover from LeChAmp. sounds good but it's not likely.

[Chip42]

A bunch of you wrote letters in response to the 200TW proposal and should have gotten a note that those letters have been reviewed and sent to the CRB. The ITAC submitted our recomendation to them last night and cleared all of the letters (as No Action Required) along with it.

I'm not going to comment further as there has been no decision by the CRB on the recomendation but once I know the final decision I'll pass it along here.

[Flyinglizard]

Most of you may be over thinking it. .. It's all about cost reduction. Cheaper is better .
You will not get any Chumpers in anything but ITEZ. There is no reason for them to make the car legal in the letter classes.
The Chumpers are way too developed and way faster.

Some crossover, and come backs, could be Vintage. Many ITcars are Vintage legal when run on ***200TW tires*** . Not all tho.

IT simply needs a definite difference from the ST/Prod, look and classing. Not another class. The ITAC should step up the calendar and get this done in the next month and not next year or later. as the time frame has been 5 yrs in the past.

Make the change now for ITC and ITB. Max Spec the tire size and increase the rim size.

[jjjanos]

Most of you may be over thinking it. .. It's all about cost reduction. Cheaper is better .

And it has not been established that this proposal is less expensive.

You will not get any Chumpers in anything but ITEZ. There is no reason for them to make the car legal in the letter classes.
The Chumpers are way too developed and way faster.

Which undercuts one of the points used to support the switch.

Some crossover, and come backs, could be Vintage. Many ITcars are Vintage legal when run on ***200TW tires*** . Not all tho.

Which is not a point that supports the switch. There are VERY few IT cars that are legal in the two big vintage groups, so no advantage there. And since the vintage guys are 7/10ths racers who scream about getting too close to them when you leave a 4-foot gap between cars while passing them, I don't see car counts increasing from someone who has an unsatisfied, burning desire to come race against 1990's cars that drive close to 10/10ths. Moreover, the same scarcity of eligible cars impacts moving from vintage to IT.

IT simply needs a definite difference from the ST/Prod, look and classing. Not another class. The ITAC should step up the calendar and get this done in the next month and not next year or later. as the time frame has been 5 yrs in the past.

Assertion offered without a single thread of evidence suggesting why.

Make the change now for ITC and ITB. Max Spec the tire size and increase the rim size.

And it's THOSE very classes that are going to be screwed the most by the switch. By all means, start with them.

Be VERY careful for what you ask. You make a bunch of guys buy wheels for a 200TW tire and that change requires a host of other changes to remain competitive, they'll just go whole-hog on it. Remove the glass, swap out the engine and go play with ChampCar where the cost/minute of track time is far, far better than with SCCA.

[kgobey]

Some information I've been able to figure out since this thread started:

1. Not all 200TW tires are made equaly fast or resiliant. There is a huge disparity between tires, we'll end up on one or other of the currently fast tires.
2. Rain competence is not inherent in the 200TW tires group. We will all need to have tires for rain and tires for dry.
3. Not all 200TW tires are compatible with cold weather. As cold weather compatibility is also not guaranteed the wet weather tires will likely be the only choice for cold weather driving.

The 2 or 3 brands that work in the warm and dry do last longer than 40TW tires, and grip to the very end, but after playing with the Hoosier R7's this year, I was able to race the R7's to the cords with proper maintenance (wrapping them, storing them in my basement between races) and got excellent results, 3 more cycles than last year.