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Thread: Your Thoughts on Mandating 200+TW "Street Tires" in Improved Touring?

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  1. #1
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    Default Your Thoughts on Mandating 200+TW "Street Tires" in Improved Touring?

    ...and, go.
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    ...and, go.

    Piss Off!
    Chris "The Cat Killer" Childs
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    I am open to the idea.
    David Plott
    Atlanta Region #289721
    #54 1973 Datsun 240Z
    Mount Juliet, TN

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit07 View Post
    Piss Off!
    What if Hoosier offered a 200TW tire...?
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

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    Even though I'm double dipping often from ITA to STU or even FP in my POS-325e, I'd think favorably on the proposal. That would "commonize" my tire selection for some other organizations as well.

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    I think that it may be high time to put IT on street tires. There are other classes such as STL and Limited Prep Production, and Touring that offer much of what Improved Touring used to.

    Solo has done the hard work here and my understanding is their rule set works. I am told they have 3 competitive tires. There is a provision to exclude a tire if it is a ringer.


    By going to street tires it would be a dramatic cost savings money that could be invested in entry fees.


    The IT7 guys I race with run 100tw Nittos and we are getting 5 – 6 weekends. I can only imagine 200tw would add more weekends. We also found that since going to harder tires brakes and bearings and such are lasting longer as well.


    SCCA has too many classes that are very similar. Street Tires would differentiate IT.
    dick patullo
    ner scca IT7 Rx7

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    Quote Originally Posted by dickita15 View Post
    I think that it may be high time to put IT on street tires. There are other classes such as STL and Limited Prep Production, and Touring that offer much of what Improved Touring used to.

    Solo has done the hard work here and my understanding is their rule set works. I am told they have 3 competitive tires. There is a provision to exclude a tire if it is a ringer.


    By going to street tires it would be a dramatic cost savings money that could be invested in entry fees.


    The IT7 guys I race with run 100tw Nittos and we are getting 5 – 6 weekends. I can only imagine 200tw would add more weekends. We also found that since going to harder tires brakes and bearings and such are lasting longer as well.


    SCCA has too many classes that are very similar. Street Tires would differentiate IT.
    It's an idea with merit, though the lack of a good rain tire seemed to be an issue as we saw by the loss of two IT7 cars in the rain at Palmer.

    Do 100-200TW race group and keep us away from the spec pinatas and maybe....
    #08 ITA/STL Miata

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    What if Hoosier offered a 200TW tire...?
    I road race because I like going around corners fast. As fast as possible, that's a step backwards using 200 TW tires. If I liked driving fast on street tires I could do that on my way to work with a street car.

    Chris "The Cat Killer" Childs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit07 View Post
    I road race because I like going around corners fast.
    You drive a Miata.
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    You drive a Miata.
    Chris "The Cat Killer" Childs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit07 View Post
    I road race because I like going around corners fast. As fast as possible, that's a step backwards using 200 TW tires.
    Chris, that's great, looking at your signature line you would still have 3 other categories to race in on DOTs. Plus a forth that i do not know what it is. why not have some differentiation between categories.
    dick patullo
    ner scca IT7 Rx7

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    Quote Originally Posted by dickita15 View Post
    Chris, that's great, looking at your signature line you would still have 3 other categories to race in on DOTs. Plus a forth that i do not know what it is. why not have some differentiation between categories.
    Someone on the CRB or BOD thought it was a great idea to dump SS and replace it with Touring 4 and Bspec. Not sure we are further a head at this point.

    I understand the differentiation of classes part. You could get me to the middle on that. The idea that this will save $ is ridiculous. We got here due to tire wars to compete in a DOT class. All you'd be doing is hitting the reset button and it would start all over again. No thanks
    Chris "The Cat Killer" Childs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    What if Hoosier offered a 200TW tire...?
    Maybe, hear it's in the works, but worry it'll be too good when shaved to nothing, and of course they will be overly proud of their tire.

  14. #14
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    While I can appreciate the desire to both distinguish IT from the rest of the SCCA's classes as a "beginner" and a "regional only/low budget" class I don't think racing on non-race compound tires is actually the smart thing to do.

    I realize that non-race tires are cheaper, and I realize that non-race tires are almost as good as race tires are in some cases, I do think that running tires that are not specifically designed to be raced will not have any measurable effect on either participation or cost of racing.

    My rationale is this:

    A: CrapCan/Lechump racing is successful because of 3 basic aspects we can never achieve with IT:
    ------------------1. simple rules with an absurdly low entry cost.
    ------------------2. a crazy amount of track-time for the dollar.
    ------------------3. Teamwork and group-cost sharing that both enable an aspect of racing that binds groups of friends as well as distributing the cost-load across 3 to 6 members.

    B. Street/non-race tires tend to display other issues that DOT-R compound tires are engineered to avoid
    ------------------1. Chunking of the tread blocks
    ------------------2. Severe rolling of the tire and sidewall/edge degradation

    Note that just because we know that "Extreme Performance Summer Tires" are good for racing Lechump/Crapcan doesn't mean we'd see everyone come out on these Extreme performance tires.

    C. Size. A quick check of the Tire Rack list I see nothing smaller than 14" and of the 14's and 15's on offer, I see one size, a narrow selection that many of us would have to make changes to the cars - relatively expensive changes to accommodate.

    As an example. My car is an ITS car. I can fit 225/45 and 225/50 Hoosier R7's on that car because I bought a wheel that has an offset that makes them work with rolled fenders. I have a specific set of springs that I use with Hoosiers that overpower the grip for the R888's I run on track days and I have quite a bit more camber than I would otherwise need. I have invested a lot of money into getting this right, and time. You're asking me to do this again for the RE71R or BFG Rival S1.5. I'm not looking forward to that. But maybe that's something we can dismiss as realized cost. But it's still painful to think about doing this again.

    To me the answer of controlling the cost of tires and still distinguishing IT as the "beginner" and a "regional only/low budget" class, would be to seek out a supplier who'd be able to step up and supply long lasting, "race-engineered" tires with a regional level contingency. Toyo RA1's, RR's R88R's, Maxxis Victra RC-1, even someone hungry like https://www.natiresusa.com/ might be willing to jump into the DOT race tire market if we proposed that 5000 IT racers would all switch to their tires with the understanding that they'd step up and supply us. Maybe even Hoosier would create an "IT" tire that we would all use if we reached out with the idea and the threat of us all dropping them for a spec tire.

    Another point of Lechump/Crapcan racers. They desperately want somewhere to test and improve their cars that are not tied up in the endurance series. A lot of these guys want to race in the SCCA/NASA and MCSCC where I race. Giving them an IT class of their own would be far more attractive than asking them to step up and build ITC, B, A or S cars... ITJunk/ITLemon would be a much more successful idea IMO, and let them know they are supposed to follow their series' rules to be compliant and let them self-police. If it becomes a "thing" then we can break out their classes into sub categories.

    While I understand the need to re-brand IT, I don't think starting here is actually the right idea. This has the potential of undermining the interest of a lot of the current IT community. Let's start with a spec tire.
    Racer of old BMW's.
    MCSCC ITS Class E30 325is
    Racing where IT still exists: http://www.mcscc.org/

  15. #15
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    A spec tire will be problematic in a multi-mark category because the size availability issue is even greater than if you have a number of manufacturers from which to choose.

    Look - at the end of the day, you're opposed to the idea of 200TW tires because the status quo works for you. There's nothing wrong with that but sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The good news for you is that SCCA rules-making has traditionally been pretty responsive to minority needs - if you've got the ear of the powers-that-be. When I go looking at current IT grids, I see pretty much NOBODY who argued that "National status will kill IT." Individual entrants come and go, and turnover in the club - in racing - is astronomical. The Club won't make a decision based on any kind of strategic plan, and a few connected people can pretty much kill any proposed change, so you're probably safe.

    K

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    Quote Originally Posted by kgobey View Post
    While I can appreciate the desire to both distinguish IT from the rest of the SCCA's classes as a "beginner" and a "regional only/low budget" class I don't think racing on non-race compound tires is actually the smart thing to do.
    Don't be misled by the moniker "street tires"; these are race compound tires. Nobody buys these things to go on their street cars, they'd only last 15,000 miles.

    They're just not as soft as The Purple Crack.

    These things are leagues above what we were racing on 15 years ago (Hoosier R3S03; I still have a pair of 2-cycle ones that have been kept inside in a bag away from electricity, you want 'em? )
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

  17. #17
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    Absolutely, all thumbs up on 200 tires!

    My HoHo sets have almost doubled in the last 18 months, just one of several SCCA dissatisfiers.

    IT certainly needs some revamping. 200TW tires, wheel sizes opened up to mate with 200TW tires, which won't typically tolerate narrow wheels as well as hoosiers do.

    Brakes and ABS is another area for discussion. Modern cars all have +17" wheels with full size, race competent ABS systems. It seems to me a reasonable approach for older non-abs cars is to allow brake upgrades. Something like any single piece rotor with any 4 piston caliper, so long as it fits inside a 17" wheel, for the front. Upgrade to disk for the rear, if drum.
    Last edited by JeffGio; 05-21-2018 at 05:11 PM.

  18. #18
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    200TW needs to happen in IT. But it could take a long time for the powers that be to do anything new with a class they don't care about.

    Soooooo, we should just do it on our own. Scrote Cup can move to 200TW and I suspect take a decent chuck of the active racers in the SE with it. Besides that area, and the NE, there ain't a lot of IT racers anyhow.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Earp View Post
    200TW needs to happen in IT. But it could take a long time for the powers that be to do anything new with a class they don't care about.

    Soooooo, we should just do it on our own. Scrote Cup can move to 200TW and I suspect take a decent chuck of the active racers in the SE with it. Besides that area, and the NE, there ain't a lot of IT racers anyhow.

    I'm down!

  20. #20
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    I am all for street tires.

    I want more people to race without going to ITS.

    With fprod only being cams away from the current miata, i was wondering why i was racing 2-3 cars in ita vs 2-3 cars in fp with contingency.

    Would there be any way to get some street tire mfgs to offer cntingency for regional races?

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