Your Thoughts on Mandating 200+TW "Street Tires" in Improved Touring?

[Conover]

How would this affect an IT car running in STL under the IT prep rules???

You'd get your ass kicked even worse.

I'm a little tired of some of the naysaying on the brown board that is coming from people who are not even going to be running IT with SCCA ever. If you have no interest in ever running IT go find some other pot to stir up, I'm sure some autocrossers are bitching about something somewhere, go muddy their water.

I did some shopping, and for me, 245/45R17 the 200TW offerings save me a minimum of $400 per set, which is basically an extra entry fee.

That is significant enough to get my attention for sure.

open up wheel diameter rules to allow everyone to find a tire and wheel combo that works for them
Limit maximum wheel width per class.
Limit maximum tire cross section per class.
reserve the right to create a tire exclusion list if a tire does not meet the spirit of the rule.
Set a Date for another round of member input on the subject after one full season of the rules implementation. Or is that just asking for a barrel of monkeys?

[Knestis]

You'd get your ass kicked even worse.

I'm a little tired of some of the naysaying on the brown board that is coming from people who are not even going to be running IT with SCCA ever. If you have no interest in ever running IT go find some other pot to stir up, I'm sure some autocrossers are bitching about something somewhere, go muddy their water.

I did some shopping, and for me, 245/45R17 the 200TW offerings save me a minimum of $400 per set, which is basically an extra entry fee.

That is significant enough to get my attention for sure.

open up wheel diameter rules to allow everyone to find a tire and wheel combo that works for them
Limit maximum wheel width per class.
Limit maximum tire cross section per class.
reserve the right to create a tire exclusion list if a tire does not meet the spirit of the rule.
Set a Date for another round of member input on the subject after one full season of the rules implementation. Or is that just asking for a barrel of monkeys?

Most of this...

...but make it even simpler by just defining a max section width. Easy to check compliance, limits what matters. Done.

K

[Conover]

Hi Cameron,Thank you for submitting a request/input to the Club Racing Board. The details of your request can be found below.
Letter ID Number: #24752
Title: Tires with a minimum treadwear rating of 200 for all IT cars.
Class: IT General
Request: 2018 is my first season in Improved Touring with my own car. Yes, I just built a new build for IT. My car is a 2008 VW Rabbit 5cyl 2.5L in ITS. My first exposure to SCCA was through my involvement with an ITB car, 1996 VW Golf 2.0L, from about 2003 to 2010. I have always had a fond appreciation of Improved Touring since then and always wanted to race in IT. I chose ITS because in my division ITS is pretty strong, fairly large fields.

I have no experience driving on 200TW tires, so I find myself anxious about this proposal, however, I do see the potential benefit. I have been told that these new extreme performance 200TW tires are very good, that they are more consistent over more heat cycles than what I currently run, Hoosier R7 225/45R17. And I see that a set of these tires is at minimum about $400 less expensive than the Hoosiers that I am currently buying. And that these tires are slightly slower, maybe 2 seconds over a 3 mile course, due to a lower grip level.

If these assertions are true, and keeping in mind the savings, I would be able to potentially spend more money on entry fees and less on tires, which would be a very welcome change. Track time is expensive and precious, I am certain that my savings would go toward more event weekends or more races in the same weekend.

I also think that IT could benefit from carving out a place for itself, a distinction from the myriad of classifications, as an affordable place to race against multiple makes where one can build and enter the type of car they prefer. As opposed to the plethora of affordable entry level spec classes. Some of us do not wish to race a spec car. I got my license in an SM and my first two seasons were in SM, I appreciate the class, but I really prefer to have some fun building a car that I like.

Finally, I think if we are to choose this path, wheel rules should be opened up so that everyone can find a tire that will suit them. I would suggest to eliminate wheel diameter and width restrictions and only specify a maximum tire section width per class. 205 for C and B, 225 for A, and 245 for S. Something like this would be appropriate and regulates what actually matters, which is the contact patch. These tires are not all made in the same sizes available in the DOT-R's, so opening up wheel diameters would allow people to find a size that works for them.

Thank you for requesting member input regarding Improved Touring, whatever happens, I hope it is for the best for the category as a whole.
Cameron Conover

[tom91ita]

I'm opposed.

Those running small tires are toast, e.g., 13". I can understand the appeal for those running +16" but to state open up the wheels/tires rules is meaningless if there are no real tires in your size.

I don't think this will bring in new drivers. The LeChump model is not easily transferred.

[XelderX]

I'm opposed.

Those running small tires are toast, e.g., 13". I can understand the appeal for those running +16" but to state open up the wheels/tires rules is meaningless if there are no real tires in your size.

I don't think this will bring in new drivers. The LeChump model is not easily transferred.

If I can attend more races with a reduced tire budget then I affectively become a new driver at all those events I wasn't previously going to. So far my car has been to VIR, my home track, and Barber on a whim. If my costs are less and I can travel more all those other tracks get to welcome me as a new driver.

[boxedfox]

I'm in favor of mandating spec tyre or a longer-lasting tyre. We have an ITA CRX that is sitting at a friend's garage because none of us want to buy Hoosiers for it. If we could run it somewhat competitively with tyres that last a little longer or have a lower retail price, it would be out there running in IT with a driver who wouldn't be racing otherwise.

[lateapex911]

Interesting thoughts.

Good points for making the switch and overall I think they carry the day, except...

The biggest negative is what to do about the smaller diameter guys? Allowing bigger wheels MIGHT help, but it kills their gearing. SO, they need to buy a different final drive. Kills the cost saving benefit. Well, in the short term at least. But, the bigger issue is that some of them can't find the gear they would need. I don't know how many guys are in that boat, I suspect it's a pretty small percentage. I don't know of a workaround.

To those who -cough- Chris, -cough- like going faster around corners, ask youself...is racing in slippery conditions (rain, damp, etc) less fun?? TO me it was a bigger challenge and one that I found to be a HUGE opportunity. The guys who are one dimensional thinkers, they'd be toast. Adapting to changing conditions, figuring out how to go fast with less stick, that's fun. Now I hear you "But it won't be changing, it will always be the same, just slower", true, but....I don't see the delta between the Hoosiers and the better 100tw tires to be that huge. We're talking a second or so on a minute long course like Lime Rock.

To my eye, it's a good concept that needs to have some technicalities worked out.

**** Oh...Spec tire?? In a category with 300+ spec lines (car models)....yea....aint gonna happen. Nor is getting a manufacturer to 'sponsor a program". LOL

Also, ANY change will have winners, and losers, and sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

[lateapex911]

I'm in favor of mandating spec tyre or a longer-lasting tyre. We have an ITA CRX that is sitting at a friend's garage because none of us want to buy Hoosiers for it. If we could run it somewhat competitively with tyres that last a little longer or have a lower retail price, it would be out there running in IT with a driver who wouldn't be racing otherwise.

Really? I suggest that if you get a set of good Nittos or similar, you'd have a car that could "Run somewhat competitively". OR, scrap together a second set of wheels and get a set of Hoosiers, then as they get old, get another set. Now, you have a fast set and a not so fast set...prize the fast set and use them as needed, and use the old set for practice, etc. Used wisely tires can go a long way.

But, big picture, I don't see saving $400 -800 as THE factor thats keeping the car off the track....but, I could be wrong .

[downingracing]

I'm in favor of mandating spec tyre or a longer-lasting tyre. We have an ITA CRX that is sitting at a friend's garage because none of us want to buy Hoosiers for it. If we could run it somewhat competitively with tyres that last a little longer or have a lower retail price, it would be out there running in IT with a driver who wouldn't be racing otherwise.

Too many variables to know if your CRX can be somewhat competitive: Engine build, tune, LSD, FD, Suspension, rims/tires, competition in your region (at that race), and the biggest piece - driver ability. Tires are one piece of the equation. Used Hoosier SM7 take offs with ~4 heat cycles on them sell for $265-325 shipped per set. I just purchased two sets for my ITA car. I was getting 12-16 heat cycles out of the Hankooks I ran in 2012 (my last year in ITA). Of course they would fall off towards the end, but they still worked great for qualifying where you could put down a flyer and then cool the tires off...

If winning is the goal, a 10/10ths build with a good driver will beat most of the cars competing in IT regardless of what tires everyone runs. Once you're competing against a stack of 10/10ths builds, new Hoosiers can be the difference.