2014 Improved Touring Participation

[StephF]

Oh my God.
it's only December 11th, and we're ALREADY arguing this again?
Screw Farmer's Almanac: this is the real place to tell what kind of winter we're going to have.

[StephenB]

It may offend some but in my opinion Andy and Steve are correct, and "get it". I commend them for being open minded and not so close minded. I would quote everything they have said so far.

SCCA Participation is falling, not just IT. We need some big changes and getting rid of the stupid national, regional, majors crap should be extremely high on the priority list. No one gets it other than the old timers, no one cares other than the old timers. It's time for the change... well back in the 90's was the time IMHO... yup about the same time NASA came around, and SCCA worlds challenge... Most people that ran nationals back in the 70's and 80's didn't have touring car and continental challenge to run. Let alone all the other "pro" stuff. Let's face the truth that national or not, club racing attracts the same people nowadays and the national racers of back then would have been doing the new "pro" thing. time to catch up to the changes that took place in 1990 just within our own organization.

Stephen

[gran racing]

The ITB Hondas , the Mk 3 Vws have driven the old guard to other classes.

As someone experienced this first hand, many of the old guard were complacent running on an old engine that was built many years ago, had crappy suspensions from the 80s, ran old tires, and so on. Several of these cars got the attention of people who wanted to really develop them, were willing to invest in the pretty good bits, had pro motors built, and used fresh tires. It became laughable when the old guard would approach me, complain about my car, look over and see just heat cycled tires on it, I'd ask how many cycles were on theirs and the response was either I don't know or maybe around 20?

To prove that point home, an old guard car was brought to Lime Rock several years ago where it was not a front runner. Of course because the car was aged, and didn't have the performance as others. A talented driver who hadn't driven that car in many years jumped in, and within a few laps was well under the lap record and not on fresh tires (if I recall correctly).

Is it conceivable that a guy with a top Regional effort would want to continuously up his game and have goals and targets to shoot for? The flip side to this is that guy gets bored with smacking his locals around and stops racing. Now there is lost revenue.

Yes, I'll agree that guy wants to continuously up his game, BUT not be required to significantly up the build cost. I want to race against people who have similar budgets and make it about how we spend our limited budgets, and the driver. Do I want to be racing against a bunch of guys who have $50k builds? Nope. And the same guys who have the money to constantly be getting top coaching around the U.S. and all of the other advantages money brings? Between the two, I don't see that it would be that much fun to be to a AAA ball club constantly playing against the Yankees.

Andy, there numerous times I thought that you built your car too well and as a result, it took the fun away.

[StephenB]

I love chasing the best. ITR in the northeast has the money, driver coaching, and top builds that would and could compete at a national level. I am trying to catch them... I may never do it but it's fun to try!



Stephen

[gran racing]

By all means I am not knocking the drivers in ITR or any other IT class, but sorry, it's not on the overall level that SM has. Just the way it is. I KNOW that I'd need to really, REALLY need to up my game to be towards the pointy end of the SM pack even with the right car.

[StephenB]

Oh for sure, I was just sayin I don't mind being the guy chasing those fast guys :-) kinda fun to get within a few tenths of them or keep them in my sites during the race!

I have always thought over the years that ITA has had that same level prep cars as well.

[Tom Blaney]

Dave

Part of the real enjoyment of amateur racing is that everyone who follows the rules when it comes to preparing a car has the same chance to win as the "rich guy". This does not matter if it is a GT/Prod/IT car, the rules will state that you can do only so much to the car. There is not a whole lot of performance difference between my motors and the guys down south, we all know the technical details. So a 5k difference is a motor build will not get you anything that an effective driver can't overcome. You proved that with the "old timers car" and the talented driver resetting track record.

Also part of the enjoyment of these kinds of classes is that the owner/driver/builder can sit in his garage with a can of beer and think how he can improve the car's performance with his own skills and effort. I know for a fact that when you beat a "race shop prepped" with your "home built" it is a much better victory lap then most.

So my contention (and I agree with some of the comments) that the club dispose of the national/regional would allow more people to compete in bigger fields (and against some really good "national drivers") and enjoy one of the reasons this is amateur racing.

[StephenB]

Nice post Tom! I agree!

I think we should do away with the national/regional thing and just race. I could care less if they said no IT at the runoffs, that doesn't matter to me. I just think the club is to confusing with the different "levels" if you want to call it that. To be honest I don't think IT should go to the runoffs as trying to enforce the rules on 40year old cars would be difficult and probably more of a mess than SM was. SCCA needs to be simpler so everyone gets it from the outside looking in. Consolidate classes and make them make sense so if you decide to modify your car more you can and just move up in cost and allowable modifications.

Stephen

[Andy Bettencourt]

Yes, I'll agree that guy wants to continuously up his game, BUT not be required to significantly up the build cost. I want to race against people who have similar budgets and make it about how we spend our limited budgets, and the driver. Do I want to be racing against a bunch of guys who have $50k builds? Nope. And the same guys who have the money to constantly be getting top coaching around the U.S. and all of the other advantages money brings? Between the two, I don't see that it would be that much fun to be to a AAA ball club constantly playing against the Yankees.

Andy, there numerous times I thought that you built your car too well and as a result, it took the fun away.

As a Red Sox fan, I never blamed the Yankees. I blame MLB. You can't have a system in place where one guy has an unlimted budget and one guy can spend 1/10th of that. There is no ceiling.

Having said that, there is no form or racing where budget doesn't matter. Fresh tires every session, highest end data to learn more, private driving coaches, fresh motors way more often... All it takes is one guy to up his game and that becomes the new standard. In NER, it was Blaney and Serra that kicked off the onslaught. I can say this with fact because those were the cars I looked at when I asked myself if I wanted to jump in.

I had plenty of fun doing what I was doing...but it was time for me to go. I loved the class rules and there was no National Championship to shoot for so I was done with any 'goal's' I had. Couple that with an intense love of coaching youth sports, it all fizzled.

Track records will fall with new tires and more HP development. It's all good.

The IT rules are good and the management of said rules is good. It's when there are lots of entries. Find a car you love and build it and have fun.

[Dano77]

find a car you love and build it and have fun.

This...... And if you can convince 13 of your buddies to spend a little money and race together, more better.....


OK 14, one more may be heading this way to run in the NERRC IT7 Dinosaur Super Series.

[JeffYoung]

It's a bit sad to see the fracturing of IT. The ruleset has some sort of "magic" in it. It's stable, and it produces great racing across many marques and years of production. You would think the SCCA would see more value in that, and by that I don't mean trying to duplicate it in new classes with similar prep.

Five years ago I was happy with IT being an "outlaw" regional class and wanted nothing to do with national racing. I was wrong. Kirk and Andy were, at the time, right. Without "Full" status within the SCCA, IT is destined to die off I think. Which is a shame.

And it needn't happen, and it needn't happen at the cost of entries to ST or Prod. The answer is, I strongly believe, to take the best of three classes that are very close in prep -- LP Prod, ST and IT -- and combine them into a super production car series.

folks are nibbling at the edges of this idea, but we need to get down to it to see if it works.

If not, then I ride the IT wave until it dies and move somewhere else. Which is really not what I want to do.

[Greg Amy]

Without "Full" status within the SCCA, IT is destined to die off I think.

I simply cannot disagree with you more, my friend. It is because IT does not have "full" status that it has survived as long as it has, and has been the most stable philosophy of the last three decades of SCCA racing.

GA

[lawtonglenn]

...one guy has an unlimited budget and one guy can spend 1/10th of that

∞ /10 = ∞

no comment on the current argument, I'm just being a nerd jerk