2014 Improved Touring Participation

[Knestis]

As I said, I've got a real history with IT and I value that. I have also been one of the most stalwart about not effing it up, and about the value of consistency.

However, I think we crossed something of a threshold the last time the pitch for "National" status was turned down. ST came long, other classes shifted around, the economy got into a big understeer... The context in a world considering class consolidations might be different enough that it's the right time to consider new ideas - like big, first principle kinds of ideas - about what the category was, has become, and should be. Yeah, the pressure to reduce the number of classes is specifically about Majors for the moment but the same issues and questions apply to "regional" programs.

The real goal should be building a cohesive Club Racing program that can thrive. I think that assumptions about what that program is going to look like are just as bad as assumptions that being in the GCR is any guarantee of any particular outcome for the category.

K

[seckerich]

You have a point Kirk, IT took a hit with the creation of ST. As the true cost of a ST car is now getting clearer many will see IT as a better route. IT remains strong in the divisions listed in the chart because many of us actively find parked cars and get new drivers into them. Find me anything but a spec class where a car built in 1996 can still run up front? That is the real value of IT that is lost on so many people. You, and the many members of the ITAC over the years made that reality. ST is a direct competitor to Production and will most likely hurt both. It was a toss up for me for next years Runoffs, but EP won out because of the level of prep involved to be fast. ST is World Challenge light and if a rule book says you can, then you must to win.

Keep in mind Florida draws more cars to a non points regional at Daytona than most regions draw to a big points race. Why, because it is fun and low key. Something many have forgotten.

[Butch Kummer]

Keep in mind Florida draws more cars to a non points regional at Daytona than most regions draw to a big points race. Why, because it is fun and low key. Something many have forgotten.

I disagree - they draw because they have a larger racer (retired folks with money) population but more importantly, because they run at Daytona and Sebring. And I don't believe I'd EVER use "low key" and "Robin Langlotz" in the same sentence...

[Flyinglizard]

If we are a member driven club, the line " out for member input" would be a lot more common. Each member gets a vote. If we want to run IT @ Rubboffs we should vote it in. But kee p in mind that there are many reasons national level tech is not easy for IT . We dont have much of the required data to enforce the rules. and more.
But if we are a club, for us, we should be able to vote for this, simple as that.

IT has driven many away for a few minor reasons. We all like a chance to podium . You have a few cars that set lap records across the country. The ITB Hondas , the Mk 3 Vws have driven the old guard to other classes. Fix this and more cars will stay. Many Mk 1 and 2 VWs have moved to Prod.

Adjust the class from the results, not some theory. Prod does this..

The PITA for SCCA protest. allows many questionable cars to continue running . The honest guys just say eff it and finds someplace else to play.

The lack of legal /stock parts for the old cars. It is illegal to update to stronger more available parts. Prod allows most of these parts.
Not wanting to keep buying the little crap like turn signal lights, headlights etc.

Solve these issues in a timely fashion to stay alive. The IT rules have taken so long to change.

SCCA also faces a huge market swing to PDX and track days. No easy way to keep racing when the new money wants to run the crap out of their street cars.
I expect we will soon have one day of PCX/TT and one day of racing over the weekend.
The well funded drivers have also tried the crapcan racing. 1500$ per and lots of racing no sitting around.

[StephF]

Oh my God.
it's only December 11th, and we're ALREADY arguing this again?
Screw Farmer's Almanac: this is the real place to tell what kind of winter we're going to have.

[StephenB]

It may offend some but in my opinion Andy and Steve are correct, and "get it". I commend them for being open minded and not so close minded. I would quote everything they have said so far.

SCCA Participation is falling, not just IT. We need some big changes and getting rid of the stupid national, regional, majors crap should be extremely high on the priority list. No one gets it other than the old timers, no one cares other than the old timers. It's time for the change... well back in the 90's was the time IMHO... yup about the same time NASA came around, and SCCA worlds challenge... Most people that ran nationals back in the 70's and 80's didn't have touring car and continental challenge to run. Let alone all the other "pro" stuff. Let's face the truth that national or not, club racing attracts the same people nowadays and the national racers of back then would have been doing the new "pro" thing. time to catch up to the changes that took place in 1990 just within our own organization.

Stephen

[gran racing]

The ITB Hondas , the Mk 3 Vws have driven the old guard to other classes.

As someone experienced this first hand, many of the old guard were complacent running on an old engine that was built many years ago, had crappy suspensions from the 80s, ran old tires, and so on. Several of these cars got the attention of people who wanted to really develop them, were willing to invest in the pretty good bits, had pro motors built, and used fresh tires. It became laughable when the old guard would approach me, complain about my car, look over and see just heat cycled tires on it, I'd ask how many cycles were on theirs and the response was either I don't know or maybe around 20?

To prove that point home, an old guard car was brought to Lime Rock several years ago where it was not a front runner. Of course because the car was aged, and didn't have the performance as others. A talented driver who hadn't driven that car in many years jumped in, and within a few laps was well under the lap record and not on fresh tires (if I recall correctly).

Is it conceivable that a guy with a top Regional effort would want to continuously up his game and have goals and targets to shoot for? The flip side to this is that guy gets bored with smacking his locals around and stops racing. Now there is lost revenue.

Yes, I'll agree that guy wants to continuously up his game, BUT not be required to significantly up the build cost. I want to race against people who have similar budgets and make it about how we spend our limited budgets, and the driver. Do I want to be racing against a bunch of guys who have $50k builds? Nope. And the same guys who have the money to constantly be getting top coaching around the U.S. and all of the other advantages money brings? Between the two, I don't see that it would be that much fun to be to a AAA ball club constantly playing against the Yankees.

Andy, there numerous times I thought that you built your car too well and as a result, it took the fun away.