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Thread: 2015 NERRC schedule

  1. #41
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    I think we need to continue to make efforts to be inclusive of cars built to other sanctioning bodies. Those cars and people exist. Chump, lemons, nasa, bmw club, Porsche club. Heck Will Turner who has a huge customer base races in BMW club, grand am, now WC, and even the lemons race all at our tracks, but has he ever raced with us? How can we get companies like his involved with us? Why doesn't he race with us! We need to partner with people like him. Heck I would be 100% supportive of letting him race with us for free if he advertised our organization... but I bet others here and in our region wouldn't support that free advertising...

    Stephen

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenB View Post
    I think we need to continue to make efforts to be inclusive of cars built to other sanctioning bodies. Those cars and people exist. Chump, lemons...
    ITEZ

    ...nasa, bmw club, Porsche club.
    ITE.

    Heck Will Turner who has a huge customer base...
    STU has invited his recently-created Spec E46 to race in STU.

    Any others?
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

  3. #43
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    We invited him? Or we have a ruleset that allows him to race? BIG difference...

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenB View Post
    We invited him? Or we have a ruleset that allows him to race? BIG difference...
    We specifically list the Spec E46 cars as eligible for STU, because the class has deviations that make them ineligible to the basic STU ruleset (weight, I think?). We added the class a couple of months ago on his request (and Eric Heinrich's lobbying).

    You can do this, too, but "it's never been done" in IT. In fact, the idea has been explicitly rejected (see: Spec Miatas in ITA).

    GA
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

  5. #45
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    Will has been to the runoffs at least once and as I recall made a great showing on RA-1s that he was "contracted" to run at the time.

    1. We have too many events competing for a limited number of drivers. Northeast Division July 10 - August 23 has at least one race EVERY weekend and sometimes three!
    2. Allow people to pay up from for a discount. Buy 5 nonrefundable race weekends and get a 6th free if you pay before March 1st.
    3. Cut the number of classes.
    4. Remove the Major and Regional distinction.
    5. One series at the divisional level.

    Dave - you talk about LRPs high cost making you pause. No calling you out specifically because I hear it all the time, but I think LRP gets a bad rap for the entry fee which is only about $20 higher than NHMS. LRP is no longer way over priced in comparison.

  6. #46
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    Do you see me at NHMS? It's not just about cost, it's about perceived value.

    For example, I'd MUCH prefer to attend Summit Point's Labor Day Friday - Monday events even though it'll cost me more a fair amount more due to travel. Yet I totally feel my family and I get an awesome product. Maybe not a great example... From what I've seen of Palmer, I'd rather head there for a Friday - Sunday race weekend for more money and a lot more racing. LRP often has a waste of a vacation day Friday qualifying, some wonky qualifying sprint which isn't a race cause that noise would be louder or something like that, and so forth.

    Ask tGA if I'm a guy who typically defends LRP, has emotional ties to it since I grew up going there with my father watching races, and so on. Gesh Greg, you proud of me? lol
    Dave Gran
    Real Roads, Real Car Guys – Real World Road Tests
    Go Ahead - Take the Wheel's Free Guide to Racing

  7. #47
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    I do find it ironic that you're complaining about entry fee cost, yet you prefer to tow 7 hours (versus 5)..the difference just in fuel cost is more (ignoring the relative value of the tracks...I know you're not a fan of NHMS).

    But I think that illustrates a bigger picture than just entry fees. I think entry fees certainly give us pause, but they don't guide our behavior as much as we think they do. I bitched about the entry fees for the Majors last year ($650, was it?) and for the Runoffs ($950?) but I still did the events because they were races I wanted to run, at venues I wanted to race, and competition I wanted to race against. Provide events at attractive venues with full fields and the rest follows.

    Hell, I bet you could probably charge $750 for the first 2015 Palmer Regional and I bet the place still fills up. Yes, people will bitch, but if this were a purely economic discussion, that's what we'd do... - GA
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

  8. #48
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    When you mentioned dollar amounts I mistakenly interpreted that as cost and not value. My bad.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    I do find it ironic that you're complaining about entry fee cost, yet you prefer to tow 7 hours (versus 5)..the difference just in fuel cost is more (ignoring the relative value of the tracks...I know you're not a fan of NHMS).

    But I think that illustrates a bigger picture than just entry fees. I think entry fees certainly give us pause, but they don't guide our behavior as much as we think they do. I bitched about the entry fees for the Majors last year ($650, was it?) and for the Runoffs ($950?) but I still did the events because they were races I wanted to run, at venues I wanted to race, and competition I wanted to race against. Provide events at attractive venues with full fields and the rest follows.

    Hell, I bet you could probably charge $750 for the first 2015 Palmer Regional and I bet the place still fills up. Yes, people will bitch, but if this were a purely economic discussion, that's what we'd do... - GA

    I agree, and as a super low budget racer I wish I didn't...I WISH $300 entry fees would make a real difference, I just don't see it being the reason people only run a couple events a year. Now $750 for Palmer...that's a different story.
    Jason Carroll - NER IT7 #07

  10. #50
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    Jake G. has often mentioned one of the reasons why Club Racing has declined is due to how the family structure has changed over the years. A while back, in more families the father would simply state he's going racing, had more control of the financial state of the family, and that would be that. His role was more of a provider in the family. There were less expectations for dad to be as involved in the kids extra curricular activities. Times have changes and I don't disagree with his theory.

    I do find it ironic that you're complaining about entry fee cost, yet you prefer to tow 7 hours (versus 5)..the difference just in fuel cost is more
    There are multiple factors in that decision. My perceived value being one and overall experience the family has. It's easier for me to sell an event where my wife recognizes the "value".

    Greg, you're looking it at a different way than many of us who have kids do. To be honest, your calculation is the accurate way. I won't disagree with that. Mine and many other people especially who have kids need to market it / sell it differently. This is no different than 95% of products sold to consumers. The entry fee is highly visible and right there in our face.

    Pay to the Order of: Lime Rock Park
    Amount: Three hundred eighty five dollars and 00/100.


    Ut oh! Many of our wives are NOT going to like seeing that. And by all means, I'm not saying our wives are dumb and don't recognize other costs involved. Yet at more incremental and spread out spending, we find a way to rationalize or ignore it. This plays on most peoples' human nature. Just like building a racecar where we make several trips to Home Depot and ignore those costs the best we can.

    This happens on a sliding scale of sorts where fuel costs begin to factor in the further away. The Glen 5 hour tow? Yes, but not a huge factor. Summit - 7 hours? Yeah, but hey, it's an amazing event. Road Atlanta where it's a $1,000 fuel bill; that scale tipped too much.

    I am not expecting this to make sense to people who are rational and/or don't need to sell our Club Racing habbit this way. Yet I know it's a reality for many.
    Dave Gran
    Real Roads, Real Car Guys – Real World Road Tests
    Go Ahead - Take the Wheel's Free Guide to Racing

  11. #51
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    First off, the number of classes have nothing to do with car counts.
    We are and will be forever the greying car club ("m not going into my reasoning)
    The future of SCCA is not the 15 year old up and coming star, Once daddy stops paying its over!
    All of our attention should be on who we are.

    Call it regional or local racing that's what makes us successful.
    There are plenty of us out there, we are just spread out to thin with so many different opportunities.
    Go to any of these tracks on a weekday and there is some club with cars on track.
    Jerry
    NER South

  12. #52
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    IMO the number of classes does have an effect on entries. The more classes that get forced into club racing from top down, the more it decreases in-class completion by separating the current driver supply into smaller groups.

    I have a GTL car. I am not interested in Majors/Runoffs participation, so I raced by myself at Regionals. Not much fun, so in the middle of the 2014 season I bought an IT7 car after a couple guest drives in 2013.

    Why did I leave GT for IT, simple, competition. And that competition brought me out to the track more in 2014 than 2012 & 2013 combined.

    If you do add classes (IT7 is a great example) let it come from the bottom up. If it grows great, if not kick it to the side (ie the now defunct, Classic GT).

    Solid competition increases entries, participation trophies don't.
    Dave Patten
    Dunbarton, NH

  13. #53
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    Dave, You're one of the few willing to change.
    I would bet the majority would just quit if their class went away.
    SCCA, As a club, should have a place for everyone to play.
    If not we become NASA :-)
    Jerry
    NER South

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ner88 View Post
    First off, the number of classes have nothing to do with car counts.
    We are and will be forever the greying car club ("m not going into my reasoning)
    The future of SCCA is not the 15 year old up and coming star, Once daddy stops paying its over!
    All of our attention should be on who we are.

    Call it regional or local racing that's what makes us successful.
    There are plenty of us out there, we are just spread out to thin with so many different opportunities.
    Go to any of these tracks on a weekday and there is some club with cars on track.
    It's certainly interesting to look at the car counts that HPDEs like Ian Prouts bring to places like Watkins Glen on a Monday! Dudes in Porsche 911s, Lotuses, Caddy V cars, Honda S2000s, and so on. They gather at the Subway for lunch...wearing $1000 Sparco driving suits.
    I instructed with Ian for a few years, and got to know the crowd. I asked a bunch if club racing held any attraction. Most had the money, if their $60000 street /track cars and $1000 driver suits (for a HPDE!) were an indication. And they had an interest for driving around tracks fast. And they were willing to take weekdays off from work.

    But, most said no. Why? Reasons like: Kills the weekends with the kids, wife won't stand for that. - Too dangerous. - Gotta get a truck and trailer AND race car & this track toy goes to work too. - Not enough room for all the stuff. Then there were reasons that were being cloaked, I suspect, such as while it looks cool to be parading around Watkins Gleen with a fancy racing suit on, the cold reality of competing ...and getting your ass handed to you....is enough to cause pause: fighting and working up the ladder to a win is not worth the embarrassment to get there.

    Of course, tht's not all of them, but I do think that all the new on track choices for motorsports entusiasts have resulted in more people getting on the track, yet less racing with the SCCA. I think thats because before the other options existed, people ran with the Club because it was the best- errrrr, the ONLY option.
    Jake Gulick


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  15. #55
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    And far as the NERRC CHAMPIONSHIP is concerned....


    Any feedback to drive participation?
    I am looking into a few sponsors for the series to disperse to those that win year end trophies. Any ideas, or takers?
    Any feedback on the points system?
    Anything at all?

    Stephen

  16. #56
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    What were you thinking?

    Looks like we'll have at least 16 races, depending on how the double/triple weekends shake out. Minimum 8 races to be crowned?

    I always thought that point systems were backwards. I know we as humans think that bigger is better, but it's so much easier to do things backwards...and with less digits.

    How about this: One point for each position. Points are bad. Lowest at the end of the season wins. Example - First place gets one point, 12th place gets 12. A theoretic perfect season would be 16 points.

    Using the above points system, maybe you get a point or two added for each race that you don't start. So if you attend 12 of 16 races, you get 4 points added to your score. This system could work even with the existing points system.
    '77 Mazda RX-3
    NER SCCA E-Prod

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by team-gpracing View Post
    ...So if you attend 12 of 16 races, you get 4 points added to your score...
    actually you'd have to add alot of points for a DNS ... one idea would be the number of finishers in the race
    you missed plus 1, making it equivalent to you finishing DFL in each missed race ... and... I'd give the winner
    a bonus for winning... or maybe how about this:

    pos 1 points 0
    pos 2 points 2
    pos 3 points 3
    pos 4 points 4
    pos 5 points 5
    :
    pos 12 points 12
    pos 13 points 13
    :
    DNF points (finishers + 1)
    DNS points (finishers + 2)
    DSU* points (finishers + 3)

    * DSU = Didn't Show Up




    .
    Last edited by lawtonglenn; 12-16-2014 at 10:01 AM.

    Glenn Lawton
    GSMmotorsports
    #14 ITS RX7
    NARRC ITS Champion 2012
    NERRC ITS Champion 2013 12 11 10 09 08
    NERRC STU Champion 2010

    __________________

  18. #58
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    So you could have a really weak but large field made up of cars not even built for the class, and it could kill your chances by DSU (not showing up). Ugh.
    Dave Gran
    Real Roads, Real Car Guys – Real World Road Tests
    Go Ahead - Take the Wheel's Free Guide to Racing

  19. #59
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    IT and SM/STL crossovers is gonna bring havoc to this system. Depending on the weekend there would be 2 ITA cars and 17 SM running ITA and Kill the guy that didnt show cause his kid has a ballet/horse/birthday thing going on.

    Whats actually wrong with the system we have?

    As far as publicity for the series, Come up with a name, and do the gorilla marketing for your team/series/class. Any skiers in the northeast should be looking at chairlift poles this year for something.. Muhahahahahaha
    All posts are made by a fat old guy with a crappy old car that isnt supported by a factory anymore and therefore should not be taken seriously, EVER

    We buy our tires at WalMart 205/50-15 NT-01 $148.00 last all season and go faster as they wear out........

    Driver Skills Development, 7's Racing Skunk Works
    it7racing.com

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by lateapex911 View Post
    It's certainly interesting to look at the car counts that HPDEs like Ian Prouts bring to places like Watkins Glen on a Monday! Dudes in Porsche 911s, Lotuses, Caddy V cars, Honda S2000s, and so on. They gather at the Subway for lunch...wearing $1000 Sparco driving suits.
    I instructed with Ian for a few years, and got to know the crowd. I asked a bunch if club racing held any attraction. Most had the money, if their $60000 street /track cars and $1000 driver suits (for a HPDE!) were an indication. And they had an interest for driving around tracks fast. And they were willing to take weekdays off from work.

    But, most said no. Why? Reasons like: Kills the weekends with the kids, wife won't stand for that. - Too dangerous. - Gotta get a truck and trailer AND race car & this track toy goes to work too. - Not enough room for all the stuff. Then there were reasons that were being cloaked, I suspect, such as while it looks cool to be parading around Watkins Gleen with a fancy racing suit on, the cold reality of competing ...and getting your ass handed to you....is enough to cause pause: fighting and working up the ladder to a win is not worth the embarrassment to get there.

    Of course, tht's not all of them, but I do think that all the new on track choices for motorsports entusiasts have resulted in more people getting on the track, yet less racing with the SCCA. I think thats because before the other options existed, people ran with the Club because it was the best- errrrr, the ONLY option.
    Jake, you hit the nail on the head. I agree 100%

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