What is a "touring car?"

[Greg Amy]

Remember that whole disclaimer about 'competitiveness not guaranteed' ??

Know how I know you've not been involved in Nationals/Majors racing...?

[Matt93SE]

Know how I know you've not been involved in Nationals/Majors racing...?

Don't go there. That colossal cluster**** is completely unrelated to this. :P

[Knestis]

I stand corrected re: inclusion of 2-seaters in the initial design of STL. I may be confusing the explanations I've heard, between that and the allowance for rotaries. That's a bad thing, too, I think - but it's a different conversation. It would still be interesting to see what Keane et al. ENVISIONED when they penned the first rule set, though. I'd love to ask him. Was it an oversight, allowed, or intended?

K

[JeffYoung]

I ask this because I truly don't know.

What evidence is there that Miatas dominant STL (other than easy crossover and a few top SM guys not surprisingly run up front in STL)?

What data supports the %age weight adder for rear wheel drive STL cars?

[Greg Amy]

- We put data acq boxes in many front-running cars during the Majors season and at the Runoffs;
- Experienced observations;
- Race results.

Majors classifications are held to a different standard than Improved Touring; while we may start with hard numbers and a general formula, it's a guideline; we are not beholden to it. The CRB's goal is to ensure reasonably equitable competition among a wide breadth of participants within any Majors class. If something sticks out, it gets whacked; if something is seriously being prepared and driven and it sucks, it gets a break.

Read my sig. And think about the above paragraph next time you want to go National/Majors racing with Improved Touring.

Now read my sig again.

GA

[Chip42]

and in response to tGA's post I would like to resubmit my belief that overachieving chassis in ST be speclined with weight modifiers, just as over achieving, perceived overachieving, alternate prep, and non USDM motors not made by VW are given modifiers to or wholly unique base weights. THAT WAY the "miata" can be "dealt with" while not sticking a similar penalty on a 86 fiero, which is a far lesser platform that HAPPENS to share drive wheels and general suspension design designators with the mazda.

[JeffYoung]

- We put data acq boxes in many front-running cars during the Majors season and at the Runoffs;
- Experienced observations;
- Race results.

Majors classifications are held to a different standard than Improved Touring; while we may start with hard numbers and a general formula, it's a guideline; we are not beholden to it. The CRB's goal is to ensure reasonably equitable competition among a wide breadth of participants within any Majors class. If something sticks out, it gets whacked; if something is seriously being prepared and driven and it sucks, it gets a break.

Read my sig. And think about the above paragraph next time you want to go National/Majors racing with Improved Touring.

Now read my sig again.

GA

Damn -- I feel for you, and I mean that. I know you tried to setup STL as purely objective based on displacement to avoid some of the subjectivity in the IT process, and it looks like there is actually MORE subjectivity now in STL.

I still think it is a good class, and a key to our future. If you are going to be putting weight on RWD cars and such, glad you are using actual data to do it rather than what we did with LapSim.

But I think Chip and Andy are right. I think the Miata may be poisoning the well for all RWD cars, which is a shame.

Anyway, I'll continue to watch the class closely and see where it goes. I have some interest in it, and yes, I'm one of those guys you'd have to worry about buliding a FrankenNSX.

[Chip42]

FWIW, I think ST in general and STL in particular are the most objective class in SCCA. IT has gain numbers, classing, tq and other adders ... STL at least just has displacement, valve count, drive wheels, and strut or no. STU adds some other variables but still, pretty damned objective. Really, that's the whole problem being discussed here with the Miata.

Benevolent dictator, ala prod, is super subjective. Which works great, except when it doesn't. it's a lot easier to cause bad feelings towards the club in a subjective system, its a lot harder to offer something for everyone in an objective one. No easy answers.

[Greg Amy]

Damn -- I feel for you, and I mean that. I know you tried to setup STL as purely objective...

Yeah, well, everyone's vision of Utopia eventually meets Reality...ours just happened sooner (welcome to Majors/National racing). On the other hand, its attraction was quite evident -- it pulled me right in immediately -- so I'm not that surprised. We/I resisted spec lines and tables for a bit, but once that cherry was popped it was apparent that's the direction we're heading. For now, we'll continue to adjust based on general characteristics and use those tables to address the highs and lows; I abhor the idea of having to spec-line everything and deal with letters and consistent argumentation about comp adjustments so I'll continue to resist it as long as it makes sense.

To that end...put in your 2c on the "sports car" proposal.

And read my sig again.

GA

[Ron Earp]

Some data I had handy in a spreadsheet:

Car	Cd	Area (sq ft)	CdA
RX7	0.31	19.19	5.95
Integra	0.33	19.50	6.44
Camaro	0.34	22.00	7.44
Mustang	0.36	22.50	8.10
280zx	0.39	21.00	8.09
TR8	0.42	20.70	8.69
240Z	0.44	21.00	9.24

[jdrago1]

- We put data acq boxes in many front-running cars during the Majors season and at the Runoffs;
- Experienced observations;
- Race results.

GA

This is my opinion as a Miata driver in STL, not a CRB member.

1)data boxes...
Have you seen this data? How do you distinguish cornering advantage from "because miata" versus "better Driver"?

2)Experienced Observations.. Often very biased.. Especially when coming from those who race in the class, even with the best intentions, it is human nature. In the past, 2011 and 2012 my observations were directly responsible in adding weight to my miata as I felt it was the right thing to do. This year, I mentioned to you and others on STAC that I felt the plate was a bit too small on the civic, to my knowledge,nothing was done with that info? What I have seen in 2013 is two similar quality FWD Honda drivers run similar cornering speeds to mine, similar lap times to mine and some good races. I have seen Integras with significant straight line speed advantage but seconds off the pace in terms of lap time. Still confused why it is OK for FWD Civics to run "miata" STL times and no one complains, but when the same times are run by 'miatas", most say "because Miata.

3)Race results..
If the best driver is a properly classed car wins every race? Is there a problem? If a car at a slight disadvantage is driven
by a pro wins every race, do we handicap the car? Or we put a wanker in a car that everyone else would win in, but he
doesnt, do we speed that car up? Race results are rewards weights, nothing more.

IMO it has gotten to the point where many feel that all good results are 95% "because miata", which is just ridiculous. I have a spare SM, prepared identical to mine. Greg and Kirk are welcome to come and race it in SM no charge at any race I attend, just let me know a few weeks out and I will have the car set up and scaled to your weight and liking. We can do a test day, a race weekend, whatever you like. The ARRC may be a good weekend? That will tell you where you really are in terms of pace. With all due respect, the over/under will be 3 seconds from pole. You guys are simply putting way too much on car and I am willing to prove my point. When you are seconds off the pace, it is more than 'frontal area", "Sports car' and "double wish bone'.

Huffmaster is one of the best drivers in the SCCA. His RX8 WAS NOT at an advantage IMO. It was driven exceptionally well and the car was very well sorted. The RX8 was the best prepped car in the Runoffs the last two years and the best driven this year, period. I have not once complained about that car. I did not win because I did not put enough time and effort into my car, it had nothing to do with the RX8 being an over dog. Gilsinger could have also won last year had he entered in an equally prepared civic. They showed up with a SS car that they basically de cammed.

Jim

[Greg Amy]

Have you seen this data? How do you distinguish cornering advantage from "because miata" versus "better Driver"?

Of course I have; haven't you? And I can distinguish that easily, because I know what I'm doing with data.

Experienced Observations.. Often very biased.

Of course it is, by definition. But then again, so is racing against a guy one(?) time and deciding he needs a bigger hole to breathe through.

This year, I mentioned to you and others on STAC that I felt the plate was a bit too small on the civic, to my knowledge,nothing was done with that info?

I'm sure you recall that the restrictor plates on the 2L engines after the 2013 Runoffs came directly from the CRB, not the STAC. The STAC does not have the information that the CRB has/had when it did that. If the CRB believes that situation has changed, then by all means it should be addressed.

If the best driver is a properly classed car wins every race? Is there a problem?

Of course not. But that's the crux of this discussion. Is the "best" driver actually winning races? How are you determining that? Are all cars "properly" classed? What's the basis for that position? What's the objective, unbiased, subjective definition of "best"? And of "proper"?

You could very well be right. In hindsight, were I to invest into building another car for this class it's not very likely that I'd spend money on anything different than what you did.

But in the end, if not "data acq, experienced observations, and race results" then what should the CRB use to consider competition adjustments? Should it consider competition adjustments at all? What does it use now for the basis of comp adjustments in other categories?

GA