What is a "touring car?"

[JS154]

Eh, technically I AM talking about that. It doesn't sound like an idea with much traction at this point but taking the long view - and shifting lightweighted versions of current STL sports cars to STU - i still think it's a viable solution. Problem is, it's a solution that's not only going to piss off four people, at least one of those people is pretty much in a position to prevent it from happening.

Do we wonder why classes don't prosper, even as they have expanded in number, when the wishes of so few individuals can drive an entire nationwide category...?

K

Top contenders in STU this year look to be a S2000 and a Z3. Both 2 seat sports cars. If a certain driver in a certain Lotus shows up that's a guaranteed win, why bother playing.

I believe that number of seats is a very valid starting point, as they are lower, with smaller frontal area, better weight balance, better handling than pretty much any 4 seat car. engine location is another huge handling advantage Mid engine for example.

How many Toyotas, Nissans, BMWs, Aduis, in other words, anything other than a Honda or Mazda, are running in STL?

[Z3_GoCar]

I'm just looking to do the best I can, there are actually two S2000 to watch for. While Rylan scored the #1 spot in the Majors, he doesn't hold the lap record for STU at MRLS. That belongs to another S2000 driver that qualified via the divisional route. Then we have Jim Rogerson in his Solstice. I hope this is the closest STU Runoffs finish ever, the class needs that to put the super/turbo-charged over dog behind.

[Matt93SE]

Rogerson's Solstice is fast in a line, as long as it can stay together. They have the wick turned up so high on those things that they continually go through engines and turbos. If they would dial back the power a little, the cars will be MUCH more reliable. That said, I know they did turn one down about 50hp last weekend to finish the race so he could qualify for runoffs, but he still nearly burned it down by the end of a 30min regional.. That said, Tony Rivera brought out his WC-TC FRS and schooled both of us with a car that was 500lb heavy.

If someone would build an FRS/BRZ to the limit and could get the weight down, it would definitely be a contender for both STL and STU. (4 seats- it's a touring car!) Or keep the weight in and throw an STI engine in the thing and you'd have some real power to go with the handling..

[quadzjr]

I too looked at STL long and hard. I decided that I should not build a car for STL not necessarily because of Miata, but the miata did influence a lot of it. I bought a engine, high end simulation software and did as much homework as I could. I knew the bogey car and times (RWD mazda product or K20 powered Honda).

After many many hours of simulation I found that even with nearly infinite money I could not build my small RWD (non Mazda) car to compete against the top level bogey cars. I found that the big role is my choice of low displacement. From a power to weight ratio it was right on or even exceeded, however the larger displacement cars had torque. Something the rule set does not directly address.

I mentioned that I believe this class is turning into a displacement class and basically you take a chassis and throw the biggest motor you can. The results seemed to support this fact with the exception of the 1.8L miatas. They were the exception to my belief and was thrown back against me.

They addressed some of the 2.0L cars and added more RWD weight, due to the success of the mazda products. This only hampered the other RWD cars more, putting me farther behind. The percent difference between RWD and RWD DWB is less than the adder I got on the engine I requested due to it’s unknown.

I still believe the weight/displacement factor is off.. There is a full built 1.6L down here in the South east run by ISC. I would consider that a well built car by a team that knows miatas.

Simulations showed that I would be running times only marginally quicker than ITS times with my 1.6L car, no torque, engine adder due to JDM, and the fear of RWD cars that are mainly focused at Mazda have affected my car. I ran a few races this year, but unless things change, which I assume they will a non Mazda STL car is not in my future. I did look at FDRX7 prices was shocked what just a rolling chassis cost!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Top contenders in STU this year look to be a S2000 and a Z3. Both 2 seat sports cars. If a certain driver in a certain Lotus shows up that's a guaranteed win, why bother playing.

I believe that number of seats is a very valid starting point, as they are lower, with smaller frontal area, better weight balance, better handling than pretty much any 4 seat car. engine location is another huge handling advantage Mid engine for example.

How many Toyotas, Nissans, BMWs, Aduis, in other words, anything other than a Honda or Mazda, are running in STL?

Stay away from seats - it's NOT the factor that is the potential problem, really. STL doesn't have the forced induction problem. I think that the S2000 and Z3 are great additions to STU because they are normally aspirated and they can win or lose on their merits as opposed to underestimating power output by a ton on some turbo of SC'd car.

Toyota's aren't know for their power potential, a Nissan could be fun but there would be a development curve for a SR20-powered 240SX (FWD cars have sucky suspensions), BMW's are typically too large cc-wise to consider, and I am not sure what Audi package you would run. Honda's and Mazda's are probably the top 2 cars in amateur motorsports by a ton, because they are cheap and fun.

[Matt93SE]

the SR-240SX is a well known quantity, turbo restrictors and all. (and non-turbo version in STL). There's a few that ran well in Australian Improved Production class. Until they take the BecauseJDM handcuffs off it, it's not going to get built. I was **ALMOST** there until they stuck the -2mm restrictor on it and I figured out how much cheaper it is to run a rotary in Prod and go faster.

GT3 supposedly has the SR16 allowed as well, so there's another option depending on how light you think you can get the chassis.

[Greg Amy]

October Prelim Minutes: http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...%20Minutes.pdf

And...go*!

STL
1. #14472 (Kirk Knestis) Consider Differences Between Sports Cars and Touring Cars in STL

Instead of adding more weight to all rear-wheel drive cars, the CRB is considering a performance equalizer in STU and STL specifically for "sports cars", as opposed to standard "touring cars".

The definition of "sports cars" includes such features as:
1. Engine location (front, front-mid, rear-mid, rear),
2. Number of doors,
3. Suspension design,
4. Overall dimensions, and/or
5. Manufacturer-published interior volume.

Among the equalizers being considered are (for sports cars) are:

1. Smaller tire section width,
2. Additional weight(with or without reducing overall class base weights), and
3. Restrictors.

The CRB would like membership input on the general idea, as well as thoughts on definitions/characterization of a sports car and suggested performance equalizers. Please send your feedback through the SCCA letter system at crbscca.com.

* You can post here, but it just don't count unless you submit it to the CRB via crbscca.com...

[Ron Earp]

What does a 2L RWD car have to weigh in STL?

Looks like 2800 lbs?

[adamjabaay]

I think everything BUT 1.5 L and under should be heavier....

[Greg Amy]

I think everything BUT 1.5 L and under should be heavier....

Where's that thumbs-up icon...?

Dude, default weight for 2.0L is 2700#. Adders/subtractors from there...read the rulez, newb!!

[Chip42]

for Ron:
2.0L STL weights
RWD w/ SLA: 2849
RWD w/ F Struts: 2795
RWD w/ SLA and non USDM 2% penalty (i.e. BMW S14B20): 2905
RWD w/ F Strut and non USDM 2% penalty: 2850

FWD w/ SLA:2700
FWD w/ F Struts: 2633
FWD w/ SLA and non USDM 2% penalty: 2754
FWD w/ F Strut and non USDM 2% penalty: 2685

[adamjabaay]

Where's that thumbs-up icon...?

Dude, default weight for 2.0L is 2700#. Adders/subtractors from there...read the rulez, newb!!

hahaha

[tom91ita]

I think everything BUT 1.5 L and under should be heavier....

Could a first gen crx get to weight with a 1.3?

[Knestis]

Before Ron replies - yes, it's a problem that the power/weight math tries to accommodate tweaked B-Spec cars.

K

[Greg Amy]

Could a first gen crx get to weight with a 1.3?

Please put one of those dune buggy flags on it, so we can see it coming as we pass it every other lap...

Before Ron replies - yes, it's a problem that the power/weight math tries to accommodate tweaked B-Spec cars.

We actually increased the weights across-the-board in STL (Dec 2011?) to attract/accommodate 1.5L cars...with B-Spec'rs as the targets.

[adamjabaay]

Could a first gen crx get to weight with a 1.3?

seeing as the lemons 1g crx you and I drive, gutted to crap, weighs 1730, and we have glass , big battery, and bumper bars, and all steel body, I bet it could....the 1.3l 12v head sucks though, and I bet you couldn't get 125whp out of a max effort motor without insane porting, custom intake, and wild comrpression, all not legal...

while thinking about this dumb 1.5l d series I just built, I looked at all the SMALLER honda motors, and they all have almost nothing going for them.....AND parts are all custom.

I think my d15 will be competative, especially with the results I got from V1 , power-wise, and I still want to do .040/crank scraper/ coatings/ slightly bigger cam/not ancient injectors for v2.....(my cam is biggest regrind he could do, lift is only .390 or something though)


I think I can force another 5-10 whp out of v2, but intake manifold is the choker.

I think the only "smaller" Honda motors id even consider are the newer 1.4L d series sold overseas, as they have the same "better" heads we have here, but you'd get a non-usdm weight penalty

and I still need to get another 75+ lbs out !

[Z3_GoCar]

Greg will get the chance to race a fast CRX at the runoffs, although when I talked to Paul at his first race with us he was running a 1.6 dual cam. But he was competitive with the best of the uncorked SM's from Rush.

The answer for me is 242hp. That's what I got, we'll see if that's competitive with the S-2k at 2550lbs (he added a sequential just because,) I think they're at that power but with 200lbs less Then there's the turbo version of the 2.5 that's got 270 at the wheel at 2550lbs. Yeah, I don't think the "Turbo" problem is fixed yet, they need to add another 200lbs, and take 200 off me.

[JS154]

What does a 2L RWD car have to weigh in STL?

Looks like 2800 lbs?

I think more like 2950?