What is a "touring car?"

[Terry Hanushek]

Kirk

In addition to a Miata and a guard rail, something else struck me (ba-dump, ching!) this past weekend at WGI. The very fundamental issue that I raised here a couple years ago seems to be manifesting itself on the STU and STL grids - that of sports/GT cars edging out, if not potentially totally eclipsing, actual "touring cars" in these classes. If we nip it in the bud now, we can head off an unintended consequence for the entire category...

We have the parallel situation with roadsters being introduced into GT, particularly GTL and a little bit into GT3.

In both instances we have permitted roadsters (primarily meotters) in to 'make the numbers'. In both cases, there seems to be a healthy dose of 'be careful what you wish for'.

Just sayin

Terry

[Andy Bettencourt]

Haven't we had this conversation before? The 'Touring' in the Super Touring category is not, and was never meant for traditional 'touring cars' (I think of the BTCC in it's heyday). It was created for a destination for World Challenge cars (in both categories) to land and otherwise to be built to the rules. Says so right in the Purpose statement of the class. Heck, 'Improved Touring' has nothing to do with 4 door saloon cars either.

Be careful what you wish for here. People largely build and race what they like. You create a class for 4-door (assuming your interior spacial numbers necessitate that) you are really limiting your audience IMHO.

Maybe it's separating the STL class into STL-SC (sports car) and STL-TC (touring car) that you are driving at?

[Greg Amy]

The Super Touring category...was created for a destination for World Challenge cars (in both categories) to land and otherwise to be built to the rules.

Cars eligible for World Challenge Touring in 2009 (from PCR Appendix A v9, the basis for the category regs). Basically, our STU cars:
Acura RSX (02-06)
Acura TSX (04-08)
Acura TSX (04-08)
Acura TSX (2009)
Audi A4 B7 (05-08)
BMW E46 325
BMW E90 325
Dodge SRT-4 (03-05)
Ford Focus Coupe (05-07)
Ford Focus Sedan (05-07)
Honda Civic Type R (03-06)
Lexus IS300 2.8L (01-05)
Lexus IS300 3.0L (01-05)
Mazda 6 (03-08)
Mercedes Benz C230 (02-05)
Subaru Impreza WRX STi (04-07)
Toyota Celica GTS (00-05)
Volkswagen Jetta Mk4 (99-05)
Volkswagen Jetta Mk5 (06-08)
Volvo S40 (05-07)
Honda Civic (-02)
Mazda Protégé (-03)

Maybe it's separating the STL class into STL-SC (sports car) and STL-TC (touring car) that you are driving at?

Not a terrible idea. But I don't see the org buying into any new classes right now.

GA

[JS154]

Cars eligible for World Challenge Touring in 2009 (from PCR Appendix A v9, the basis for the category regs). Basically, our STU cars:
Acura RSX (02-06)
Acura TSX (04-08)
Acura TSX (04-08)
Acura TSX (2009)
Audi A4 B7 (05-08)
BMW E46 325
BMW E90 325
Dodge SRT-4 (03-05)
Ford Focus Coupe (05-07)
Ford Focus Sedan (05-07)
Honda Civic Type R (03-06)
Lexus IS300 2.8L (01-05)
Lexus IS300 3.0L (01-05)
Mazda 6 (03-08)
Mercedes Benz C230 (02-05)
Subaru Impreza WRX STi (04-07)
Toyota Celica GTS (00-05)
Volkswagen Jetta Mk4 (99-05)
Volkswagen Jetta Mk5 (06-08)
Volvo S40 (05-07)
Honda Civic (-02)
Mazda Protégé (-03)


Not a terrible idea. But I don't see the org buying into any new classes right now.

GA

How many 2 seaters are there in
WCTC
ITCC
BTCC
DTM

Keep it simple.

Touring cars have 4 seats. Sports cars have two seats. 2+2 qualifies as a touring car.

[Knestis]

GT cars - Grand Touring - come in all shapes and sizes so the inclusion of "sports cars" in GTL (et al.) isn't the conceptual issue that it is if GT cars are plopped in with touring cars. And I'd argue that the same problem I describe here exists in Improved Touring but I don't really care anymore.

But most importantly, to the question of "limiting the audience," my point is that we de facto limit the audience by allowing GT/sports cars in ST. We allow a tiny handful of make/model options and give them enough of an advantage that they beat out the DOZENS of 2- and 4-door chassis out there that might well be competitive and interesting, were they not prejudiced against by the fundamentals of the rules and listings. (Number of doors, by the way, hasn't been a general criterion for definition of touring cars around the world.) The way things are headed right now, absent any intervention, the future is STL populated with modded Miatas. Why would anyone build anything else at this point?

The CURRENT grids shouldn't however be used to gauge any kind of success, with the ITA/SM double dippers making up the numbers. People most emphatically did *not* build those cars for STL; they run the class out of convenience. Tailoring the rules to encourage them to do that is going to result in a very one-dimensional class.

In STU, something close to a dealer-showroom Lotus will beat up on a purpose-built AWD turbo sedan, or exotic multivalve "real" touring car. And it's not an economical solution, either.

Looking at some numbers, the interior volume of a typical coupe/sedan in the 4-cylinder, 4-person people hauler is about 2x that of the Miatas and Lotuses. That's not a close thing. The one interesting anomaly is the RX8, with more interior volume than (for example) the new Civic Coupe that has run STL.

K

[benspeed]

Love the thread! Would those little excuses for backseats in a 968/44 count? Lol

[cjb25hs]

Love the thread! Would those little excuses for backseats in a 968/44 count? Lol

Alot more interior volume than a miata or lotus

[backformore]

For what it's worth, which is slightly less than nothing, I agree with Kirk and like the direction he is headed. When I decided to convert my SSC Civic to something else, part of the motivation was the creation of STL which looked like a class that was designed for "tuner" cars, which are often "touring" cars and maybe even aimed at FWD. As time has marched on though, it appears that the evolution of the class, whatever the motivating factors, keeps moving away from my first impressions. Heck, I just noticed my car's engine has been penalized. Not that I'm aware of a 1.6 liter anything showing any dominance anywhere.

At the last STL race at Rd Atl (my home track), the car to beat was, surprise, a Miata. Don't get me wrong, I love the miata. I am, however, getting kinda tired of every class, new or old, being dominated by them. Kudos to Mazda for building such a kick-ass car.

So, I am for a 4 seat/interior volume or some other criteria to make STL a class for "other than sports cars". Like Kirk said, you eliminate a few options while making a large number of cars suddenly viable.

[JS154]

The way things are headed right now, absent any intervention, the future is STL populated with modded Miatas. Why would anyone build anything else at this point?

Yes, I see this as a problem. The Miata and the K20 and , well nothing else makes any sense to consider for STL.

In STU, something close to a dealer-showroom Lotus will beat up on a purpose-built AWD turbo sedan, or exotic multivalve "real" touring car. And it's not an economical solution, either.



K

Disagree, my car and Irish Mike's car can bring the fight to the Lotus, if driven perfectly and built to the limit of the rules. The Lotus is easy to regulate though pulley size. I don't have an issue with the Lotus in there at all. I dO have an issue being stuck in a run group with a gazillion Miatae and B-Spec cars. What's Heinricy and Lipperini hitting on the back straight at WGI? 110 in a draft with a tailwind? You put three Miatae together and awareness of the world around them evaporates to only their own little microcosm.

STU is not economical. Aftermarket ECU's, sequentials, relocated suspension pickup points, unlimited shocks. That's easily $60K for those items alone, and you still need the rest of the car to hang those bits off of.

STU is so expensive it will never be a big class. The only way to really get it bigger is slash the cost to compete (eliminate modified/alternate gearboxes and dry sumps and relocated pickup points) - which is effectively STL. There's a gazillion E36 and E46 BMWs that should be running in STU. Where are they? Nasa GTS I'm afraid.

[Greg Amy]

Disagree, my car and Irish Mike's car can bring the fight to the Lotus. The Lotus is easy to regulate though pulley size.

So you're advocating crippling a 4-cyl sports car's advantages in a field of large-displacement touring cars via targeted spec-line power reductions? Note Kirk's premise of "all else being equal"; can you think of any other ~200hp car that would be competitive in STU?

And how does that category philosophy translate to STL, given we are generally not crippling cars' engine output (except for 2L cars)?

GA, wondering if we're heading for category-wide individual spec lines a lot faster than we think...

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally Posted by Knestis

The way things are headed right now, absent any intervention, the future is STL populated with modded Miatas. Why would anyone build anything else at this point?

I reject this statement.

There is exactly one, ONE uber-prepped and driven Miata in STL. It has a National Champ driver as it's pilot. Is this setting a trend? The fields are double dippers, not track record setters. Yes, we (FOM) like to build our own stuff and don't have a customer who wants to drop the coin to develop the BP 1.8 into what it needs so we went with what we knew, a trick 13B conversion. Plenty quick but limited in it's development for power. Given it's power to weight, I am not sure it would smash any solid records. Maybe Steve E can find us 15whp!

Maybe we will see 20 Drago-prepped STL cars out there soon. But I'd like to see the other stuff keep coming. Greg has proven you can podium at a Major and is as fast as our 13B car.

[Knestis]

Part of the reason STL is attractive to me is that it's not a "spec-line special" class. Spec-line CAs invite what I dislike most about Club Racing - the classing/specification shenanigans and the massive incentive for backroom dealing that goes with it. Greg's note reminds me that I shouldn't get too attached to the idea that STL might be less crappy in that regard.

My point is that without the 'cars people like to race', there is almost no class. 4 cars at the Major? Then we revert to Greg's point. Were there only 4 cars there because of Drago and his Miata or was it because of the 15 SM's that were double-dipping on some weird principle issue? If it was a Miata issue at all. If it was, lets decipher between the BS reason and the legit reason. ...

Take the longer view - with the admission that I see value in classes that offer variety... The grid last weekend isn't as important as what the grid might look like 3-5 years. The way it is now, there's a built-in incentive - again, physics - to build a 2-seat STL car over a 4-seat STL car, and there are damned few options. That's going to influence make/model variety in the class, and so its appeal, I think. Why use a spot in a class to satisfy the interests of someone who's already running their "regular class" on any weekend, that might appeal to someone who would 'like to race' a mildly modified, 4-cylinder Toyota, Nissan, VW, Hyundai, Ford, Chevy, Kia, etc. sedan, hatch, or coupe that isn't otherwise accommodated somewhere in the mix? Someone who looks at the math is going to know that's a fool's errand. Someone who votes with his heart is going to see a class that doesn't fit their vision of what they want to do.

The real problem here is the CRB and their desire to allow 'field fillers' into new classes to boost numbers and profits. If we wanted STL to be a FWD piston-based class, then they should have locked it down from the beginning and let it sink or swim on it's own. It takes balls to do that and you have to believe 100% in your class concept. Personally I think it would fail. Would anyone build anything other than a Honda if it was just FWD? Isn't that just Honda Challenge? Would the CRB make CA's to entice other platforms to be competitive with their strut-based chassis? Then if they are, do we have the same problem we 'have' now? (Now I'm just playing things out hypothetically)

The "make up the numbers" game is a loser, ultimately, and yes - I DO indeed think that STL should have been held to what it was originally envisioned to be, without letting the sports car (and rotary) camel's nose under the tent flap. It's matters of degree, I admit, but differences in general engine architecture could have been dealt with well enough on a formulaic basis (not making the leap to make/model spec lines) to get a bunch of options in the same ballpark, if there were all FWD platforms of the same basic dimensions. The rotary experiences in IT should have told us that the point at which a categorical adjustment (struts/DWB, FWD/RWD, etc.) bear on only ONE case in a class, things can get stupid right quick...

K

[JS154]

So you're advocating crippling a 4-cyl sports car's advantages in a field of large-displacement touring cars via targeted spec-line power reductions? Note Kirk's premise of "all else being equal"; can you think of any other ~200hp car that would be competitive in STU?

..

No. The point was the Lotus is an outlier - mid engine supercharged sports car (what about that says touring car to anyone? ) - no other Lotii engines or chassis to mix-n-match - the Lotus is easy to regulate competitiveness via pulley size. The rest of the 2-seater sports cars - not so much.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Cars eligible for World Challenge Touring in 2009 (from PCR Appendix A v9, the basis for the category regs). Basically, our STU cars:
Acura RSX (02-06)
Acura TSX (04-08)
Acura TSX (04-08)
Acura TSX (2009)
Audi A4 B7 (05-08)
BMW E46 325
BMW E90 325
Dodge SRT-4 (03-05)
Ford Focus Coupe (05-07)
Ford Focus Sedan (05-07)
Honda Civic Type R (03-06)
Lexus IS300 2.8L (01-05)
Lexus IS300 3.0L (01-05)
Mazda 6 (03-08)
Mercedes Benz C230 (02-05)
Subaru Impreza WRX STi (04-07)
Toyota Celica GTS (00-05)
Volkswagen Jetta Mk4 (99-05)
Volkswagen Jetta Mk5 (06-08)
Volvo S40 (05-07)
Honda Civic (-02)
Mazda Protégé (-03)


Not a terrible idea. But I don't see the org buying into any new classes right now.

GA

Correct, but again, 'Super Touring' was created for WC GT and WC TC.

STO has/had everything from 4 door FWD sedans to 2-seat mid engined platforms and everything in-between.

Never had the intent on being for 'touring cars' only.