What is a "touring car?"

[Greg Amy]

That's ok because I'll buy you a Beer over Authentic Mexican food in Monterey.

Sweeeeeet!

[JeffYoung]

I too agree with Andy.

I think it is entirely unfair to say the ITAC wasn't doing a good job during that time period. We routinely spent 4-5 hours on the calls, talking into the wee hours of the night, to come up with the (at the time) ONLY objective, repeatable and written down system for classing cars in the SCCA. That was a sea change of epic proporitions.

There were miscommunications between the CRB and the ITAC, but I tihnk everyone -- Bob Dowie, Andy, everyone -- was trying hard to do the right thing. THe problem was that we were really doing something revolutionary, and the basis for it (stock horsepower) was causing the CRB a lot of heartburn (as it should).

But not doing a good job? No, that is simply wrong.

The ITAC has, or at least had, one of the toughtest jobs in the SCCA. We have the most popular multi marque class that actually is multi marque, and we had to come up with an objective process to set car weights that covered something like 300 chassis stretching from 1968 until 2008.

[Clark18]

Drago said something I also posted some time ago--the RX8 doesn't seem an overdog, the Runoffs winning car was simply very well prepared and driven. My T4 RX8 has run times similar to decent STL cars like Walke's RX7, but is seconds behind top STL builds. Walke's car and an ITS Miata running STL were quite a bit faster than the RX8 down the Road America straights, I made up time in the corners (more tire). Admittedly my T4 RX8 is a bit heavier and less prepared than an STL version, but the straight line speeds will not be much different. If I took out the weight to run STL I would then reduce the tire so overall the car would not be much faster; under the current rules I would also have to run the plate which slows the car even more making it uncompetitive. The plate seems like an over-reaction to the Runoffs; do any of you on the CRB/STAC have an opinion on chances of removing the plate?

[JS154]

The ITAC has, or at least had, one of the toughtest jobs in the SCCA. We have the most popular multi marque class that actually is multi marque, and we had to come up with an objective process to set car weights that covered something like 300 chassis stretching from 1968 until 2008.

ST has taken that job over, considering ST allows engine swaps, turbo charged and supercharged cars and allows different levels of engine and drivetrain modifications.

Nedless to say, it's not easy, and the lack of strong full-build true ST cars running regularly against each other - and the resultant lack of head to head competition and onboard data - is not helping.

THAT said, can we move the ITAC issue from 5 years ago or whatever to a different thread and keep this one on ST "DEFINITION OF A TOURING CAR"

[p.keane]

The BOP between the Miatas and Integra looked pretty good this weekend at the SARRC Championship race at Daytona. Equally prepped and driven. PK

[Chip42]

agreed, BUT... weren't they an ITS car (ISC / Mike VS) and an SM, not proper STL cars? agreed that they were equally WELL prepped and well driven, and that they appeared to be well balanced with you overall (lap times and observation support that statement) but they weren't "equally prepped" as it were. separate but equal and all that...

infamously bad miata aero revealed itself on the banking, somewhere around middle backstretch Pete's car gained legs on the miatae who stayed in a 2 car drafting pack on his bumper to that point for the first few laps. once there was a separation between the 3 cars by SRF traffic the miatae fell back sooner. was very cool to watch.

This is not to take away from the good drive by you, PK - we saw you in the "west hairpin" sliding the snot out of the car and the poor decision by a SRF driver to divebomb when you slid a bit too much. congrats on the win and, I assume, the championship. condolences to Deuce, too breaking with a commanding lead - was it driveline? he's had rough luck the past few years.

[p.keane]

I do not know what engine package Mike Van was running ITS or STL, but it was equal to Raymond's power. Raymond car has been in STL for a long time and has a Rossini built STL engine. SM do not run 140 mph through the tri-oval. In the second qualifying session I could not draft up to Raymond his car is that strong. As I would start to gain on him entering the tri-oval I was running out of gear. We bumped up the rev limit for the race and jeopardized my motor.

When they drafted past me going down the back straight, I knew I was in for a long day. If they did not race each other I was done. I got lucky to draft back past them, Raymond was not trying to draft Mike, I got a run on Raymond coming out of the Bus Stop. When I side drafted off of Raymond, I was then one car behind Mike and that gave me a run on him. Mike left me enough room on the bottom to put my left side tires on the first yellow line and beat him down into turn one. I might have seen that move on "Days of Thunder" or "Talladega Nights". I guaranty they would not let me do that again. Even with my good run, I did not get past Raymond until I between turn 4 and the tri-oval. I got past Mike after Start Finish.

The re-start was key as well, I put a bunch of SRFs between us going into turn one. I think at one point I was five wide going through the tri-oval. Racing SRFs stinks and I felt bad I was in the middle of the top three, ok leading the top three. I needed them as a buffer if the Miatas got back to me. I apologized to the SRF guys in impound and they where all smiles because they knew what I was doing and thought it was good racing.

My STL assessment, the Miatas are not as slow as people think on the outside and the Integra not as bad as people think in the infield. I also think the three of us are 4 to 5 seconds off the pace when the show comes to town. I will admit that my engine is ITS+, but not as good as the I blew up in Sebring. I'm sure the two Miatas can gain HP, because they do not have Drago power. I also think you will need a partner to win next year.

Deuce broke the left front hub with two to go.

[Chip42]

so an admittedly not full tilt STL integra, a full tilt ITS miata (99-00), and a less than East Street spec STL 99-00 miata are all roughly on par at a specific track. groovy. I agree with your assessment in general but just want to point out that the BOP observed is not actually representative of the rule set. it was a good race though. I also agree that when K20 powered FA or later civics hit the joint at the runoffs next year 4-5s will fall from the lap record. and I still like kirk's general idea that there ought to be a class for actual touring cars among the myriad classes with the name of touring, currently being won by a select few, non touring, cars.

What's the skinny on the "concorde agreement" and in what way will STL, Prod, GT, and Touring (IT??) be merged, killed off, or otherwise affected? arguing about category rules now might be a moot point with that in the distance.