What is a "touring car?"

[Andy Bettencourt]

I'll leave this here one more time:

Please do NOT use interior volume or frontal area or some generic description of a 'sports car' to handicap cars. Those items may be teeny-tiny factors but as some have said above, it's HP above all that wins. Then go down the list after that.

What people are really afraid of (in it's true definition) is a configuration of front AND rear double wishbones. The cars that can outhandle anything are equipped as such. Miata, S2000, RX8. Use this as a starting point for CA's IF you feel like you have to (or need to) after you get the HP situation in line.

[Greg Amy]

I'll leave this here one more time:

* You can post here, but it just don't count unless you submit it to the CRB via crbscca.com...

Just sayin.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I'm not trying to 'make it count', I am trying to influence those who race in the class or who may be thinking about it, when it comes time for them to 'make it count'.

[Greg Amy]

No offense Andy, but that's kinda cowardly. In casually reviewing this thread, and looking at the list below of those that have read at this thread (of the ones I recognize), I count fewer than five persons that have actually turned a wheel in this class. But that's irrelevant because, as you are aware, these decisions are not left up to just those "who race in the class or who may be thinking about it"; it's open for anyone in the Club to decide.

But most importantly, those that may not race in the class probably have some good ideas -- which, last I checked, is the whole point of a "what do you think". "What do you thinks" are not votes; in fact, we give very little credence to the number of votes that go one way or the other (I personally ignore the numbers). Encouraging people to submit "I support this" or "I oppose that" are pointless; that's not what we want. We are looking for ideas. We are looking for different viewpoints to consider positions that we did not think about (see Tip #1 in "Greg's How to Write a Rule"). And we give even less credibility - if any at all - to Internet forum rants.

You can sit here on the Internet, presiding on the sidelines and "influencing" people all you want; feel free to leave as many things on the Internet as you want "one more time". But unless we get some ideas submitted to the CRB, then the STAC is going to make recommendations to the CRB based on existing evidence, observations, and opinions.

Fastrack has yet to be formally published - due out this week - so take this with a grain of salt, but despite all the argumentetation and hand-wringing here on this subject, and the fact that the pre-Fastrack was published over a week ago, I'm kinda surprised that the total number of letters on this subject that have been forwarded to the STAC for review is...

...zero. Dunno, maybe there's less interest in this subject than the current players like to project? Our next concall is in a week and a half; I guess we'll see how that goes...

GA

[adamjabaay]

I'll be turning my first "wheel" in STL within a month or so. I can't wait to run against miatas, personally.....

[Andy Bettencourt]

Cowardly is a stupid term to use Greg. What in the world would I be afraid of in writing a letter? It's an internet BB, we debate. At this time I feel that it's the responsibility of the people who race in the class to weigh in officially. I am not at that point yet where I feel the CRB needs to hear from a non-driver on this topic mostly because the concept has been debated here extensively and we have given those who do race - or may, some information to chew on in order to write a letter.

And it's disingenuous to insinuate that an 'idea' that you heard, that you might think has merit, could not be brought up as part of the monthly STAC calls, by you - or any other board member who reads this BB as part of the committee debate and problem resolution. Just because it's not submitted via the SCCA site doesn't mean the thought process isn't out there. My concept isn't an actionable item anyway, it's a potential piece of someone else's idea who may see merit in next-wave comp-adjustments or even a redefining of the class as we know it now.

Right now, I don't see a problem with the class that needs immediate action.

[Andy Bettencourt]

WRT the 'what do you think', I also need to be more educated on what the SCCA has done in the past. STL has the same 'issue' as other classes. I bet EP and FP also have the same 'issue'. Getting some success stories from the Prod ranks on how they have attempted to balance Miata's, Preludes, 240Z's, Integra's, 2002's, S2000's, RX8's, Caterham's, 914's, 944's etc.

Seems like the concepts may already live inside the CRB.

[Greg Amy]

And it's disingenuous to insinuate that an 'idea' that you heard, that you might think has merit, could not be brought up as part of the monthly STAC calls, by you - or any other board member who reads this BB as part of the committee debate and problem resolution. Just because it's not submitted via the SCCA site doesn't mean the thought process isn't out there.

Wait, whut? Dude, is has been brought up, and it has been discussed by the STAC, and we have discussed various options. All we're doing with this process is asking for other thoughts to ensure that the small committee that is talking about this issue hasn't missed any opportunities or ideas before we make a recommendation. That's what this process is for.

We don't need a vote. I don't give a flying doggy-doo about vote numbers or "influencing" positions. I care about ideas, opportunities, and ensuring that we make the right decisions for the good of the category as a whole. We could get 27 brazillion "we hate this idea" votes and if it's actually the right thing to do, then we're still going to recommend it. In the end, we'll make decisions based on what we see as the good of the category despite opinion numbers that may deviate from that position. That's our minimum responsibility. And we're using the "what do you think" option as a way to ensure we have all reasonable information.

If you don't have any new information to add, well then "thanks for your input".

As for your 'influencing'..."The lady doth protest too much, methinks" (the vernacular interpretation).

GA

[Ron Earp]

SPORTS CAR

*Two doors
*Two seats
*Better than average power to weight ratio; straight line performance exceeds that of average sedans and coupes
*Excellent handling characteristics; handling well above average for sedans and coupes of same basic drivetrain layout

In other words, a great handling car that can hold it's own with respect to power and won't get smoked by my wife's Acura at a stoplight.