What is a "touring car?"

[Chip42]

I agree with Jeff Re: ITAC/CRB. Things have gone really well over the last year or 2, and other than a a couple of pretty well publicized issues, well for the total amount of time I've been involved.

re: touring cars - Jeff, I think you might be missing the point, but I agree the need for ST to succeed is huge. of course a low roof, small frontal area car is going to have better aero than a modern sedan, that's crazy talk. Even a shockingly good 0.26Cd of a new Mazda6 or Ford Fusion (Ok, 0.27) equates to more actual drag because drag ≈ Af*Cd, and Af sedan >> Af miata (or integra or whatever car you want to consider pre ~2005) and Cd sedan < Cd miata. the frontal area is just SO MUCH BIGGER that the overall drag works out to be about the same at best, usually advantage: miata (or other small sporty car). Throw in the compromises for trunk space, build cost, live human bodies (i.e. those not in the trunk), and a generally higher starting weight and you can see where kirk is coming from. plus there's that whole perception issue. I think in order for STL to be meaningful it SHOULD NOT have sportscars in it. no elise, no NSX, no S2000, no miata. I care less about STU because engine size and hairdryer allowances get the big sedans a torque number they can do something with, but I think the equalization there needs to be understood and addressed before we have an all small car with forced induction class.

don't conflate IT issues with ST, guys. the Z3 and 328 are different in IT NOT because of suspension, but because of factory rated hp and REALLY CRAPY intake. NOTHING in IT that has been run in the past 5+ years is different because of aero. if a school bus and a miata shared a driveline, they would be classed the same in IT. ST is NOT IT, despite sharing SOME prep similarities.

[Matt93SE]

I think we would all agree that a Miata is a "sporty econobox" while an Elise, NSX, and S2000 are more pure 'sports car'...

But where do you draw the line? And does that apply for STU and STO/GT2 as well?

IMO, the Miata belongs in STL no matter what label you try to put on it. It's a Japanese econobox 4-banger that just happens to have a small body and 2 seats.. and a damn good suspension.

[Greg Amy]

I think we would all agree that a Miata is a "sporty econobox" while an Elise, NSX, and S2000 are more pure 'sports car'...

No, we would not.

[Andy Bettencourt]

No, we would not.

Agreed. Nothing more 'pure' than a Miata. A 'sporty econobox' IMHO would be something that looks like a sports car but has econobox underpinnings like a Mercury Capri or a Fiero. It's all about what's under the skin.

[Chip42]

The miata is FAR from an econobox - it IS a sportscare in all of the ways that matter. I'd agree that from the list given, the miata has the most "econobox" of motors, but in the sub 2L arena, most engines ARE econobox motors. one of the biggest issues IMHO with the fundemental principles of the class' displacement/weight formula. I like production's answer to that equation better. it allows for flaws to be equalized even under a limitted prep philosohpy.

[Matt93SE]

I stand corrected.. I guess a 1.6l engine with 100whp and 0-60 in >8sec is a sports car now.. sure coulda fooled me. Fook my old Maxima with 200whp and 6.5s 0-60 must be a supercar!!

[StephenB]

I have just been reading along so no real input here since I am not a contributing member or supporter to the whole ST idea.

Now that the miata is being considered as a sports car I guess people can stop calling the SCCA the Mazda car club of America and we can go back and call it the Sports Car Club of America again!

Stephen

[Chip42]

I stand corrected.. I guess a 1.6l engine with 100whp and 0-60 in >8sec is a sports car now.. sure coulda fooled me. Fook my old Maxima with 200whp and 6.5s 0-60 must be a supercar!!

you have to contextualize the comments. think Austin-Healy, MGA, Elan, etc... THOSE are quintessential sportscars and what the miata was emulating, albeit an evolved version. Like them, the miata isn't about OMG face ripping acceleration, it's about balance. in that, it has a SUPERB chassis and a good enough motor. the miata is also a very unique car in the current automotive landscape, being one of very few and by far the most successful low hp sportscar. the HP gains in stock cars over the last few decades, and specifically the era from ~2000 to 2010 have been insane. old supercars (lambo miura, pick a ferrari) are slower than modern family sedans by 0-60 and 1/4 mile measurements. engine tech came on strong in the wake of better computer modelling. conversely, most chassis engineering has devolved into beams and struts liek it was in the original rabbit to make them cheaper and easier to build and to make more room for our fat asses and copious amounts of crap we seem to carry about.

We're talking about a 2.0L and under 4cyl class in STL - i.e. an econobox class, and a 3.2L and under class in STU - sedans, touring cars, etc... The definition of sportscar being put forward is that it is one with substantially better handling, balance, and smaller frontal area / better aero than the bulk of the sedans, econoboxes, and "touring cars" that otherwise fit in STL and U, ostensibly those cars for which the class was created. this offers such "sportscars" an advantage. lets list cars that even approach the miata in terms of chassis and "sportscar" characteristics built since 1985. miatas, S2000, Z3/Z4, MR2 SW20 and spyder (the AW11 is a corolla in reverse and much better remembered than it is to experience today), supra, RX7/8, 30/5/70Z, 200/240SX, corvette, elise, exige, boxter, cayman.... you can see the list elevates out of the STL range QUICKLY and out of the STU range nearly as fast. "sportscars" today pretty much are "super cars" of yesterday.

Your maxima with the stock V6 doesn't meet the requirements of STL and might not even fit in STU, depending on year (anything after the VG30 is out). The fact that modern cars are by and large SERIOUSLY overpowered for most SCCA classes is a whole 'nother discussion.

[JS154]

I stand corrected.. I guess a 1.6l engine with 100whp and 0-60 in >8sec is a sports car now.. sure coulda fooled me. Fook my old Maxima with 200whp and 6.5s 0-60 must be a supercar!!

Sports CAR not sports ENGINE.

[JS154]

I think we would all agree that a Miata is a "sporty econobox" while an Elise, NSX, and S2000 are more pure 'sports car'...

But where do you draw the line? And does that apply for STU and STO/GT2 as well?

IMO, the Miata belongs in STL no matter what label you try to put on it. It's a Japanese econobox 4-banger that just happens to have a small body and 2 seats.. and a damn good suspension.

Disagree, completely.

The STI and EVO support your argument, high performance derivatives of the crappy lancer and impreza econoboxes.

The Miata is a pure sports car, primarily designed for superior handling with small size and low weight/height.