What is a "touring car?"

[adamjabaay]

Could a first gen crx get to weight with a 1.3?

seeing as the lemons 1g crx you and I drive, gutted to crap, weighs 1730, and we have glass , big battery, and bumper bars, and all steel body, I bet it could....the 1.3l 12v head sucks though, and I bet you couldn't get 125whp out of a max effort motor without insane porting, custom intake, and wild comrpression, all not legal...

while thinking about this dumb 1.5l d series I just built, I looked at all the SMALLER honda motors, and they all have almost nothing going for them.....AND parts are all custom.

I think my d15 will be competative, especially with the results I got from V1 , power-wise, and I still want to do .040/crank scraper/ coatings/ slightly bigger cam/not ancient injectors for v2.....(my cam is biggest regrind he could do, lift is only .390 or something though)


I think I can force another 5-10 whp out of v2, but intake manifold is the choker.

I think the only "smaller" Honda motors id even consider are the newer 1.4L d series sold overseas, as they have the same "better" heads we have here, but you'd get a non-usdm weight penalty

and I still need to get another 75+ lbs out !

[tom91ita]

Greg,

so no replacement for displacement? since your own car saw gains with the change of the 1.7 to 1.8L plus weight last year, have you thought much of going to 2.0? Or do you that's too heavy for the chassis/brakes/bearings, etc?

[Greg Amy]

Not to dissuade lower-displacement efforts -- I'm really looking forward to Adam's efforts -- but it just seems that in STL higher-horsepower wins. Equal horsepower will go to the better chassis (e.g., Miata, RX-8, etc). If you have both then you're invincible. Granted, it's Road America, but in the last two Runoffs I predicted the order of finish based solely on estimated horsepower, and I've been correct. I predict the podium for Laguna Seca will go to the highest-horsepower cars this year as well, with more nods to sports cars*.

I could install a K20 in my Integra - there's bolt-on kits for it - but it's still a lot of work, and a lot of expense. I don't mind the work but I'm pretty much done spending any more significant development time for STL; I just don't think I can afford to compete at the pointy end of that money tree. I'll continue doing some lower-end tuning and enjoy competing/driving instead.

GA

* Haven't given it detailed thought, but leading candidates are Jim Drago in the 1.8L Miata, Robert Schader in the 2L MX-5, Brian Laughlin in the 1.8L Miata, Oscar Jackson in the Miata (noticing a theme here...?) Leading FWD candidates are Brian Shanfield in the 2L Civic, Cliff Ira in the 1.8L Integra, and I see there's another CA-based driver in a 2L Civic; the latter is interesting simply because he probably has experience at the track.

There's a lot of unknown-to-me in there, folks that race on the West Coast; they'll have home field advantage. And you might see some strong 2L FWD cars at the pointy end, especially those in the FG Civics, which have the better suspension. But in the end, I predict the pointy end of the Runoffs will be sporty cars - let's just say it: Miatas - with some higher-powered FWD cars sprinkled in there for good luck.

Me? I'll take that 1.7 liters of pure Honda FWD fury and enjoy the HELL out of a track I've wanted to race for a long time. And beer. Lots of beer.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I'll leave this here one more time:

Please do NOT use interior volume or frontal area or some generic description of a 'sports car' to handicap cars. Those items may be teeny-tiny factors but as some have said above, it's HP above all that wins. Then go down the list after that.

What people are really afraid of (in it's true definition) is a configuration of front AND rear double wishbones. The cars that can outhandle anything are equipped as such. Miata, S2000, RX8. Use this as a starting point for CA's IF you feel like you have to (or need to) after you get the HP situation in line.

[Greg Amy]

I'll leave this here one more time:

* You can post here, but it just don't count unless you submit it to the CRB via crbscca.com...

Just sayin.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I'm not trying to 'make it count', I am trying to influence those who race in the class or who may be thinking about it, when it comes time for them to 'make it count'.

[Greg Amy]

No offense Andy, but that's kinda cowardly. In casually reviewing this thread, and looking at the list below of those that have read at this thread (of the ones I recognize), I count fewer than five persons that have actually turned a wheel in this class. But that's irrelevant because, as you are aware, these decisions are not left up to just those "who race in the class or who may be thinking about it"; it's open for anyone in the Club to decide.

But most importantly, those that may not race in the class probably have some good ideas -- which, last I checked, is the whole point of a "what do you think". "What do you thinks" are not votes; in fact, we give very little credence to the number of votes that go one way or the other (I personally ignore the numbers). Encouraging people to submit "I support this" or "I oppose that" are pointless; that's not what we want. We are looking for ideas. We are looking for different viewpoints to consider positions that we did not think about (see Tip #1 in "Greg's How to Write a Rule"). And we give even less credibility - if any at all - to Internet forum rants.

You can sit here on the Internet, presiding on the sidelines and "influencing" people all you want; feel free to leave as many things on the Internet as you want "one more time". But unless we get some ideas submitted to the CRB, then the STAC is going to make recommendations to the CRB based on existing evidence, observations, and opinions.

Fastrack has yet to be formally published - due out this week - so take this with a grain of salt, but despite all the argumentetation and hand-wringing here on this subject, and the fact that the pre-Fastrack was published over a week ago, I'm kinda surprised that the total number of letters on this subject that have been forwarded to the STAC for review is...

...zero. Dunno, maybe there's less interest in this subject than the current players like to project? Our next concall is in a week and a half; I guess we'll see how that goes...

GA

[Z3_GoCar]

Not to dissuade lower-displacement efforts -- I'm really looking forward to Adam's efforts -- but it just seems that in STL higher-horsepower wins. Equal horsepower will go to the better chassis (e.g., Miata, RX-8, etc). If you have both then you're invincible. Granted, it's Road America, but in the last two Runoffs I predicted the order of finish based solely on estimated horsepower, and I've been correct. I predict the podium for Laguna Seca will go to the highest-horsepower cars this year as well, with more nods to sports cars*....

This points to the failure of the straight weight/displacement method of determining competitiveness. So, I'd argue that other than classing the not otherwise classed, it's time to move on to spec lines for at least motors, and leave the reminder of the modifiers in place. Maybe even make a flow chart so that Tech has a coherent way to check ultimate weight.

I put this in my request #14859.

WRT the 'what do you think', I also need to be more educated on what the SCCA has done in the past. STL has the same 'issue' as other classes. I bet EP and FP also have the same 'issue'. Getting some success stories from the Prod ranks on how they have attempted to balance Miata's, Preludes, 240Z's, Integra's, 2002's, S2000's, RX8's, Caterham's, 914's, 944's etc.

Seems like the concepts may already live inside the CRB.

Don't forget that in GT/Production the open cars get to remove their windshield's and have asymmetrical cages to minimize air drag and top weight. So the ST spec roadster (even with a hard top) would be slower than the GT/Production version. Prather has the data to prove it as well.

http://prodracing.com/prodcar/viewto...15691&start=10

[Andy Bettencourt]

Which compounds this problem if you allow 'sports cars' better aero. So what is Prod doing to compensate? I think the baseline knowledge is there already.

[Z3_GoCar]

Which compounds this problem if you allow 'sports cars' better aero. So what is Prod doing to compensate? I think the baseline knowledge is there already.

EP has the perfect example in three cars that share the same displacement motors, the e36 sedan/Z3/and Z4

e36 325 sedan - 2525lbs
e36 Z3 2.5l - 2450lbs -> 75lbs lighter
Z4 2.5l - 2550lbs -> 25lbs heavier

then there's the:

e36 328 sedan - 2725lbs
Z3 2.8l - 2650lbs -> 75lbs lighter

There's two thing going on, first the Z3 has semi trialing arm rear suspension instead of the multi-link that the sedan and Z4 have, so roadster aero with the removed windshield net 25lbs, with the hard top you still get the 25lbs but aren't competitive. but the semi-trailing arm rear suspension gets a 100lb weight break for the net 75lbs removed. I'd argue that in the case of a ST Z3 it should have the full 100lbs removed because I can't take advantage of removing the windshield and using a roadster cage.
Net the reason that Miatae/Rx8 are taking names in STL has more to do with the power plant and suspension than roadster/sportcar aero.

[Knestis]

Anyone who thinks 25 pounds - or even 75 pounds - is enough to make a repeatable difference, let alone serve as a purposeful "competition adjustment," is demented.

K